Gentlemen, I have started this new thread to encourage ideas that would put in place new procedures that would enable us to increase the number of runs each competitor can reasonably expect to get at future Speedweeks without increasing the burden on anyone involved in the running of the event. I don't think I'm either dreaming or being unreasonable if I say that for all their effort, expense and eager anticipation each competitor, regardless of the number of entries, should be able to get 4 runs a day. We have now reached the point where two drivers sharing a car would mean that each driver will be unlikely to get 4 runs in the whole Speedweek.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that next year we ran a short course and a long course. This idea has had positive responses already so let's keep them coming. Two tracks would require some different procedures and some changes to the timing arrangements but would instantly double our capacity, so we're half way there already. Next, we need some attention paid to reducing the time between runs. Let's do some more maths. The 330 runs over less than 3 full days works out to an average of about 6 minutes per run. None of the runs took more than 2 minutes which leaves about 4 minutes of empty salt. I think that is where we are most likely to find the efficiencies we need to get that extra run so that everyone can get their 4 runs a day. I don't know why there is so much time between runs, Peter Noy mentioned something about having to make sure the Safety Zone is clear before the next run starts. Am I right in thinking that some competitors aren't driving straight off the course and onto the return road? Can someone please explain what the current procedure is down there and what generally causes the most frequent delays?
Back to the maths. 4 runs times this year's 130 competitors is 520 runs per day. There is no reason that I am aware of (apart from the volunteers issue, which is close to being under control) why we can't run from dawn to dusk. Let's assume that is 12 hours. 520 runs divided by 12 hours is 44 runs an hour, divided by two tracks is 22 runs per hour per track, or slightly less than 3 minutes between each run. I think that's almost achievable. Comments please.
Two Courses
Moderator: DLRA
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David Leikvold
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:57 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Two Courses
Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two!
Agree, another thing that acounts for say a minute of the lost 4 minutes is reading out the car number and class designation before the run.
If all drivers were given a card numbered 1-10 in pre-stage and the class number, driver were then given to the timer before going upto the line the starter would only have to confim number 1 to 10 and let them go.
This would save a lot of stress and hassel for the starter as well as having the added benifit of speeding things up.
If all drivers were given a card numbered 1-10 in pre-stage and the class number, driver were then given to the timer before going upto the line the starter would only have to confim number 1 to 10 and let them go.
This would save a lot of stress and hassel for the starter as well as having the added benifit of speeding things up.
G'day David,
When you do the math, you also need to take into account the high wind pauses, delays from spins, a few timing equipment stoppages and competitor mechanical failure whilst on track. I don't know the time lost through the above but it was considerable.
If memory serves me correctly, when I was chatting at the start line it was more like a run every 4 minutes when things were going smoothly. Don or someone else volunteering on the start line/timing van can perhaps chime in with an accurate figure.
More runs for competitors can only be a good thing assuming it can be made to work.
Cheers,
Rob
When you do the math, you also need to take into account the high wind pauses, delays from spins, a few timing equipment stoppages and competitor mechanical failure whilst on track. I don't know the time lost through the above but it was considerable.
If memory serves me correctly, when I was chatting at the start line it was more like a run every 4 minutes when things were going smoothly. Don or someone else volunteering on the start line/timing van can perhaps chime in with an accurate figure.
More runs for competitors can only be a good thing assuming it can be made to work.
Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.
Hi Rob.
Timing van Stan.
4 to 5 minutes was about av."all running well".
Cookey & my self were happy with the way the timing went,
only a few probs spiders, BIG ants on the timing beams & the wind
moving the timing lights. Strong wind delays, spins break downs,
looking for a NUT lost on track (over 6mile).
All in there were a lot off runs with the time we had.
We all must remember this is MOTOR SPORT...........
V8 SUPER CARS HAVE A LOT OF DELAYS AS WELL LOOK AT ALL THE ADS WE SEE ON THE TV..
Timing van Stan.
4 to 5 minutes was about av."all running well".
Cookey & my self were happy with the way the timing went,
only a few probs spiders, BIG ants on the timing beams & the wind
moving the timing lights. Strong wind delays, spins break downs,
looking for a NUT lost on track (over 6mile).
All in there were a lot off runs with the time we had.
We all must remember this is MOTOR SPORT...........
V8 SUPER CARS HAVE A LOT OF DELAYS AS WELL LOOK AT ALL THE ADS WE SEE ON THE TV..
STAN.#744
Our body cells renew themselves while we sleep
If only our wallets would do the same.....
Our body cells renew themselves while we sleep
If only our wallets would do the same.....
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David Leikvold
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:57 pm
- Location: Brisbane
A run every 4 minutes in ideal circumstances is getting very close to what we need. Delays are sometimes unavoidable, we have to accept those, but we can work on the avoidable ones until they don't exist.
If the wind can move the timing lights out of alignment could they be mounted on a metal base that is tek-screwed onto the salt? That way they'd never move unless rain water dissolved the salt around the screws. A good sized hard cover over the whole thing to keep rainwater off the screws would solve that and keep the gear dry too and there's one less source of delay.
As for bugs on the gear, caravans have available a base for the corner stands that can be water filled so that crawling insects can't get up the leg, so maybe make the base plates with the ability to be filled with a little water. That only leaves flying insects to annoy us. Spray the gear with Mortein perhaps?
Without really understanding the delays from the safety zone, might the starter be better off sitting on a simple lifeguard style tower so that he can see down into the zone and not be hampered by the shimmering mirage effect and also not need to rely on a radio call from someone down there to tell him the track is ready. Get all drivers/riders to go straight to a marked point off the zone before they stop so the track is automatically cleared and ready after every incident free run. Vehicles with parachutes should maintain a speed that keeps their parachutes airborne until they reach that point. Then and only then can they stop to collect the chute.
The lost nut issue harks back to my tirade about poorly prepared vehicles. Good cars don't lose parts. Maybe we should ban plain nuts unless there was a mechanical necessity (and there isn't).
Automation is the key to successfully doing the same thing over and over again. How about this for an idea about the time spent communicating car numbers to the timers. Get a bar code system that generates a unique bar code for each driver/vehicle before the event starts. Cover each one with a bit of clear laminate so it can't be weather affected and then on shared vehicles (2 barcodes or more) cover the wrong ones with a bit of tape so the only one readable at the start line is the right one. Have these all on the same side of every vehicle so someone at the start line can find and scan it easily with a hand held bar code reader just before the car leaves. The data is automatically and accurately recorded and sent where it's needed and that's one less problem. Can anyone think of anything else that goes wrong?
If the wind can move the timing lights out of alignment could they be mounted on a metal base that is tek-screwed onto the salt? That way they'd never move unless rain water dissolved the salt around the screws. A good sized hard cover over the whole thing to keep rainwater off the screws would solve that and keep the gear dry too and there's one less source of delay.
As for bugs on the gear, caravans have available a base for the corner stands that can be water filled so that crawling insects can't get up the leg, so maybe make the base plates with the ability to be filled with a little water. That only leaves flying insects to annoy us. Spray the gear with Mortein perhaps?
Without really understanding the delays from the safety zone, might the starter be better off sitting on a simple lifeguard style tower so that he can see down into the zone and not be hampered by the shimmering mirage effect and also not need to rely on a radio call from someone down there to tell him the track is ready. Get all drivers/riders to go straight to a marked point off the zone before they stop so the track is automatically cleared and ready after every incident free run. Vehicles with parachutes should maintain a speed that keeps their parachutes airborne until they reach that point. Then and only then can they stop to collect the chute.
The lost nut issue harks back to my tirade about poorly prepared vehicles. Good cars don't lose parts. Maybe we should ban plain nuts unless there was a mechanical necessity (and there isn't).
Automation is the key to successfully doing the same thing over and over again. How about this for an idea about the time spent communicating car numbers to the timers. Get a bar code system that generates a unique bar code for each driver/vehicle before the event starts. Cover each one with a bit of clear laminate so it can't be weather affected and then on shared vehicles (2 barcodes or more) cover the wrong ones with a bit of tape so the only one readable at the start line is the right one. Have these all on the same side of every vehicle so someone at the start line can find and scan it easily with a hand held bar code reader just before the car leaves. The data is automatically and accurately recorded and sent where it's needed and that's one less problem. Can anyone think of anything else that goes wrong?
Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two!
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Greg Watters
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 pm
Startline and general running this year were very good, the few changes prticulary the pre call of numbers has sped things up quite a bit
Delays are unavoidable, sometimes vehicles break,and in the poor traction conditions spins not uncommon, while we may be able to minimise it a little , basicly its a fact of life
The other factor that made the biggest difference esp wednesday was the short track
My thoughts on how we may utilise what we have for 2 tracks are along the lines of track 1, short track,closest to pit ,2 mile runup 1 mile timed, 2 mile shutdown with the last mile very clearly marked, then witches hats across the track as a defined finish
1/2 mile at least safety area then crossing point for the long track
track 2 parrallel to and 400 meters from the track 1
175 mph qualifying to use track 2
3 mile runup, timing for the next 2 or 3 including the flying klm as our current timing system allows, shutdown as required.
short track vehicles with problems exit toward pits, longtrack that can't clear the 5 mile of the short short exit away from the pits
Also Different radio channels for general public than the DLRA officals ,timers ,starter , maybe even a FM channel... Animal FM .
.. or similar....
Delays are unavoidable, sometimes vehicles break,and in the poor traction conditions spins not uncommon, while we may be able to minimise it a little , basicly its a fact of life
The other factor that made the biggest difference esp wednesday was the short track
My thoughts on how we may utilise what we have for 2 tracks are along the lines of track 1, short track,closest to pit ,2 mile runup 1 mile timed, 2 mile shutdown with the last mile very clearly marked, then witches hats across the track as a defined finish
1/2 mile at least safety area then crossing point for the long track
track 2 parrallel to and 400 meters from the track 1
175 mph qualifying to use track 2
3 mile runup, timing for the next 2 or 3 including the flying klm as our current timing system allows, shutdown as required.
short track vehicles with problems exit toward pits, longtrack that can't clear the 5 mile of the short short exit away from the pits
Also Different radio channels for general public than the DLRA officals ,timers ,starter , maybe even a FM channel... Animal FM .
.. or similar....
Dave
I don't think bugs are a big problem with the timing system as they do not generally live way out on the salt and only get out there after being carried by us. There's nothing for them to live on out there...
I don't think a tower will work for the starter to see what is going on downtrack and this is already covered by southern and northern rescue already and they have a much greater clarity of what is actually going on.
Good point re the safety and integrity of vehicles. I can't imagine going out with the intention of driving really fast without knowing that my vehicle was as safe as it could possibly be.
I think this year's start line procedures were a great start to streamlining the running of cars down the track but I don't think a lot of money or technology is needed to improve upon what has already been started. It was demonstrated that advising the next 10 cars to run to the timer and having the timer call for the next car by number was very effective.
I believe this may be further enhanced if one of the start line assistants were to call out the run sheet to an assistant timer on a seperate radio channel to channel 8. This way when the starter is handed the next run sheet he doesn't have to call them all out to the timer. The load is shared. This depends on the ability to use another radio channel without the use of the repeater?? Cookey?
I think the prestage was a great improvement on previous years in allowing racers to stay in their pits and get things done rather than waiting on the line in firesuits. I think it could be even better though if a ticketing system could be used instead of waiting. I don't have the answer and would say keep doing it till a solution is found.
Greg - I think we all agree that ultimately 2 tracks is the way to go to increase the number of runs but would suggest that the long course be used for short course cars and bikes as well as long course in order to get traffic through. I would modify your idea of qualification for long course to read that cars and bikes on the long course are to use the short course turn off unless they have qualified at 175mph and nominated to use the long course to the starter. If they then don't use the turn off and go for a long drive down the far end they plead their case with Animal.
If we are to go with 2 courses it would be an excellent time to try out alternative timing systems. In fact alternative timing systems could be trialled next meeting on the warm up track?
There has been a lot of discussion regarding timing and alternatives out there for wireless systems. I checked out (on paper) a system for use on the airstrip at Warwick and it looked good and provided a lot more functionality than the current system. I'm not saying that what we have is no good as it does the job, but the one I looked at had a comms channel for starter to timer contained within it (which cuts out part of the radio problem of open mics) as well as the ability to display in real time on wallboards the speed of the vehicle through each sector.
The other advantage of wireless is that you can bring the timer back to the pits instead of out in Siberia. If the timer is in the pits and the pre-stage is in the pits, then surely the function of who is next would be easier as the pre-stage guy could hand the run sheet straight to the timer and pre-stage can relay to the start line assistants the running order so vehicles can be gridded ready to be called.
Just some of my thoughts
Lynchy
I don't think bugs are a big problem with the timing system as they do not generally live way out on the salt and only get out there after being carried by us. There's nothing for them to live on out there...
I don't think a tower will work for the starter to see what is going on downtrack and this is already covered by southern and northern rescue already and they have a much greater clarity of what is actually going on.
Good point re the safety and integrity of vehicles. I can't imagine going out with the intention of driving really fast without knowing that my vehicle was as safe as it could possibly be.
I think this year's start line procedures were a great start to streamlining the running of cars down the track but I don't think a lot of money or technology is needed to improve upon what has already been started. It was demonstrated that advising the next 10 cars to run to the timer and having the timer call for the next car by number was very effective.
I believe this may be further enhanced if one of the start line assistants were to call out the run sheet to an assistant timer on a seperate radio channel to channel 8. This way when the starter is handed the next run sheet he doesn't have to call them all out to the timer. The load is shared. This depends on the ability to use another radio channel without the use of the repeater?? Cookey?
I think the prestage was a great improvement on previous years in allowing racers to stay in their pits and get things done rather than waiting on the line in firesuits. I think it could be even better though if a ticketing system could be used instead of waiting. I don't have the answer and would say keep doing it till a solution is found.
Greg - I think we all agree that ultimately 2 tracks is the way to go to increase the number of runs but would suggest that the long course be used for short course cars and bikes as well as long course in order to get traffic through. I would modify your idea of qualification for long course to read that cars and bikes on the long course are to use the short course turn off unless they have qualified at 175mph and nominated to use the long course to the starter. If they then don't use the turn off and go for a long drive down the far end they plead their case with Animal.
If we are to go with 2 courses it would be an excellent time to try out alternative timing systems. In fact alternative timing systems could be trialled next meeting on the warm up track?
There has been a lot of discussion regarding timing and alternatives out there for wireless systems. I checked out (on paper) a system for use on the airstrip at Warwick and it looked good and provided a lot more functionality than the current system. I'm not saying that what we have is no good as it does the job, but the one I looked at had a comms channel for starter to timer contained within it (which cuts out part of the radio problem of open mics) as well as the ability to display in real time on wallboards the speed of the vehicle through each sector.
The other advantage of wireless is that you can bring the timer back to the pits instead of out in Siberia. If the timer is in the pits and the pre-stage is in the pits, then surely the function of who is next would be easier as the pre-stage guy could hand the run sheet straight to the timer and pre-stage can relay to the start line assistants the running order so vehicles can be gridded ready to be called.
Just some of my thoughts
Lynchy
The matter of communications is being resolved "as we speak" with a separate frequency to be used in future for the ambo's and firey's to advise of the course status to the timers van.
Other types of data transfer are being investigated in relation to pre grid form up and between the starter and timers.
Other types of data transfer are being investigated in relation to pre grid form up and between the starter and timers.
Cheers,
Tony Cooke
DLRA # 363
Tony Cooke
DLRA # 363
Lynchy,
No left turns from the track whilst hard wired timing gear is used, them timer fellas are picky like that.
To my mind, wireless pretty much has to happen, it's just a matter of when (and how much).
Not just nuts loose on track either, a parachute and "D" shackle too. Lucky they didn't need it on that run. Fom memory the (harmonic balancer I think) nut was ultimately found in that vehicles pit.
With the ten vehicles running to the start line, a sheet with the running order written on it could be handed to the first driver who could then pass it on to the starter or asistant starter(s) when they arrive at the line. No arguments on position there, no writing required at the starters end, hopefully saving some time there.
Another general thought regarding the staging lanes, is there any reason they could not be on the track side of the pit area? I lost count of the number of times people would hear such and such was about to run and they would hurry across to watch the run then wander back. This would leave the pits clear of parked vehicles and allow returning vehicles to either get back on the line or return to their pit without negotiating the line.
The drivers meeting called for two lines to shorten this but reality was, only about the first ten or so really were lined up in two lanes.
Cheers,
Rob
No left turns from the track whilst hard wired timing gear is used, them timer fellas are picky like that.
To my mind, wireless pretty much has to happen, it's just a matter of when (and how much).
Not just nuts loose on track either, a parachute and "D" shackle too. Lucky they didn't need it on that run. Fom memory the (harmonic balancer I think) nut was ultimately found in that vehicles pit.
With the ten vehicles running to the start line, a sheet with the running order written on it could be handed to the first driver who could then pass it on to the starter or asistant starter(s) when they arrive at the line. No arguments on position there, no writing required at the starters end, hopefully saving some time there.
Another general thought regarding the staging lanes, is there any reason they could not be on the track side of the pit area? I lost count of the number of times people would hear such and such was about to run and they would hurry across to watch the run then wander back. This would leave the pits clear of parked vehicles and allow returning vehicles to either get back on the line or return to their pit without negotiating the line.
The drivers meeting called for two lines to shorten this but reality was, only about the first ten or so really were lined up in two lanes.
Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.
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Dr Goggles
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:23 pm
- Location: Right behind you Chief !
yeah
I vote for either tattooed bar codes on the back of the neck or plastic ear tags..........
seriously though, a bar-code on the car couldn't be too difficult to manage. A clear plastic pocket can be stuck to the vehicle , the bar code ( on a card and just ONE of them , it should be issued by the scrutineers as the certification)could be taken out then taken to Club Animal in order to join the queue saving the effort of moving the car. Groups of ten are then called to pre-stage, then they are summoned to the line.
A data base would then record the order , speed details to be added either at Club Animal or directly by the starters if it was networked on wireless.
Anyone?
seriously though, a bar-code on the car couldn't be too difficult to manage. A clear plastic pocket can be stuck to the vehicle , the bar code ( on a card and just ONE of them , it should be issued by the scrutineers as the certification)could be taken out then taken to Club Animal in order to join the queue saving the effort of moving the car. Groups of ten are then called to pre-stage, then they are summoned to the line.
A data base would then record the order , speed details to be added either at Club Animal or directly by the starters if it was networked on wireless.
Anyone?
...few understand what I'm trying to do , but they vastly outnumber those who understand why..
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Greg Watters
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 pm
One of the steps that I had planned to do for this years meet was to get as much data into my computer prior to the first runs being made but the pre- entry listing (which had carry over entries from the past 2 aborted meets) had insufficient information to be of much use.
We are now working towards making the race data base more user friendly and efficient for the future.
As for the implementation of a wireless timing system is concerned, I personally cannot see something being tried and tested prior to 2010.
But we can only live in hope
We are now working towards making the race data base more user friendly and efficient for the future.
As for the implementation of a wireless timing system is concerned, I personally cannot see something being tried and tested prior to 2010.
But we can only live in hope
Cheers,
Tony Cooke
DLRA # 363
Tony Cooke
DLRA # 363
Re: yeah
plastic ear tags defentily couldn't see the neck bar codes with there helmets on your on a winner there Dr G also if u dont want a ear tag you don't run that would thin em out a bit moreDr Goggles wrote:I vote for either tattooed bar codes on the back of the neck or plastic ear tags..........
seriously though, a bar-code on the car couldn't be too difficult to manage. A clear plastic pocket can be stuck to the vehicle , the bar code ( on a card and just ONE of them , it should be issued by the scrutineers as the certification)could be taken out then taken to Club Animal in order to join the queue saving the effort of moving the car. Groups of ten are then called to pre-stage, then they are summoned to the line.
A data base would then record the order , speed details to be added either at Club Animal or directly by the starters if it was networked on wireless.
Anyone?
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David Leikvold
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:57 pm
- Location: Brisbane
parallel
Greg, I've been told that the 4 tracks at Bonneville all start at the same point and spread as they go so that the faster/ further you go the further you are from the other tracks, which is good common sense safety. Is that right? The angle wouldn't have to be much, but there's plenty of room anyway. That way we could still run one set of starters (thus reducing the numbers of volunteers needed at any given moment) and maintain good control of the start line because everything would be in one place. Having the long course further away makes good sense, very little chance of trouble in the shut down area that way.
Running both as short courses will need some refinement so that nobody inadvertently turns into someone else's path down there. Maybe have the turn off half a mile or so further down on the long/short course to maintain separation and at the start line never send two short course cars off together (one on each track I mean, of course, there'll be no further mentions of the word "simultaneous" around here thank you!)
Stagger the starts there by 90 seconds (remember we're trying for a 3 minute turnaround or 20 runs an hour on each track). Maybe keep the short course bikes on the short course so they don't have to shoulder check before they turn off the course to the right. Put the hard-to-see-out-of cars on that side too for the same reason. Add a rule that requires internal rear vision mirrors in ex road cars where they can be used successfully. As for the bar codes, I think it would be smarter to have them attached to the vehicle for the duration of the meeting. That way they don't get lost or damaged.
Running both as short courses will need some refinement so that nobody inadvertently turns into someone else's path down there. Maybe have the turn off half a mile or so further down on the long/short course to maintain separation and at the start line never send two short course cars off together (one on each track I mean, of course, there'll be no further mentions of the word "simultaneous" around here thank you!)
Stagger the starts there by 90 seconds (remember we're trying for a 3 minute turnaround or 20 runs an hour on each track). Maybe keep the short course bikes on the short course so they don't have to shoulder check before they turn off the course to the right. Put the hard-to-see-out-of cars on that side too for the same reason. Add a rule that requires internal rear vision mirrors in ex road cars where they can be used successfully. As for the bar codes, I think it would be smarter to have them attached to the vehicle for the duration of the meeting. That way they don't get lost or damaged.
Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two!