Hi All.
This will sound "off-the-wall" but I am legit with this..
A few questions that might help us at this stage,
Over the last couple of year's along with Grant Hodgson we have built a few replicas of the Mad Max black on black Pursuit special Interceptor.
See :http://www.geocities.com/Mad_Max_Parts/roll.html
I am currently building up a replica of this car for myself, however it will be powered by a big block Ford engine and not the 351 of the film car.
My Interest in the Salt comes from the fact that along with a Californian film maker we are looking at securing an offshore investor to film the replica and the event in 2004.
If we can secure an Investor we will be there, HOWEVER.
Can anyone tell me if the replica will comply with the regulations?
We are not interested in running to achieve a class record, (not practical with such a vehicle) but rather to just run the car in the full movie make-up as a replica for the purpose of filming. So we need to have the car looking movie correct.
The car will be a high powered big block and we will be looking for @ 300 KPH.
I should imagine that all the wings are OK, the wheels are steel so the balancing will be critical, tyers I have read already will be no good as they are on the film replicas a two ply T/A radial.
Can I use circuit racing tyers?
Will the "Fake" blower be OK?
Have I correctly understood the 11 inch height restriction to the top of the scoop?
Effectively the function of the fake blower is as a scoop as the blower internals are removed.
The fake blower is attached to a welded bracket by 8 high tensile blots, the bracket is mounted via 4 high tensile inlet manifold bolts.
Is this OK?
In drag racing the wheel nut when secured must have thread exposed through the nut, is this the case?
I also see that we need a fully floating rear axle.
Tail shaft loop?
Roll cage?
Any help or advice will be most welcome.
But as I said earlier I cant afford to do this so an investor for the final film will be critical. That aspect is being addressed at this time.
But we need to know that we can run the replica to secure the investor.
Regards
Gordon
Mad Max on the Salt
Moderators: DLRA, Rob Carroll, OLDtimer, outbacktrev, Peter Noy
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John Broughan
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:50 pm
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Gordon, have a look at the previous thread. The things like wings or blowers only apply if you want to contest a class record. You car will need to meet the technical requirements to run. You are only intending 187 Mph, so you will need V or Z rated tyres. You will need a roll bar setup, fire system and drivers suit/helmet/harness etc. My first guess is that you will struggle to meet your speed with all the extra bolt on stuff that a Mad Max replica would have in the wind. The full rule book should be on the site in a week or so. We also have some members from Moe who race an XA coupe running 192 Mph with a 351. It is not easy. What the addons would do to the handling of the car is anybodies guess.
John Broughan
Empty Pockets Racing
200 MPH club life member
Empty Pockets Racing
200 MPH club life member
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Gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the Salt
Hi John..
Thanks for that John.
I shall look out for the rule book.
As that looks to be the answer to a lot of questions.
But even the knowledge about a roll cage,(alloy, Cro-mo?) tyers, fire system (?) and a floating diff will assist in our budget.
You could be right about the wind drag of the replica, the ride height is also an issue I would think. Anyhow just keep throwing HP at it I suppose.
I noticed that Gary Myers with about 500 HP was about done at 170 MPH, so I have no doubt that it is more difficult to achieve a REAL no-bullshit speed than to reckon you have done this or that speed.
I checked out that purposeful looking XA coupe in the pictures, good to see a classic Muscle car out there! Those guys running 190MPH with the XA body and the 351 are doing a real good job I reckon.
The coupe has a two inch factory top chop over the sedan, so it is good choice in the muscle car ranks.
The Mad Max stuff and the handling is not such a mystery. I have no doubt that the Monza nose helps when the speed goes up a bit as the stock coupes were concaved walls at the front.
We actually ran a tacho recorded 160 MPH, IE: 5800-5900 rpm with a 3:00 to 1.00 diff and 15X10's with 295X50X15 Radial T/A's (Hmmmm ... must have been in the NT!) with the 4V 351 Max Replica coupe that is now in Arizona.
And surprise surprise the replica was very flat and stable, even at 140 MPH it was flatter and more stable than my stock bodied tightened suspension road going coupe.
HOWEVER the roof spoiler must be dragging a lot of air, if you run them in the rain you can see the rain swirling into the huge low pressure area behind it, as a result the boot spoiler does almost nothing at all really.
The roof spoiler is fundamental to the replica but I agree the horses required to shove it to 300 KPH, might be more then we have got, that last 26 MPH might take a 100% more power than the 160 mph run. There must be a ratio that will allow me to work this out mathematically.
You guys must know this power vs drag vs speed equation. (Anyone)?
It must be ratio something like this:
If it takes 100 HP at the wheels to do 100 MPH, I bet it takes 200hp to do 150mph, 400hp to do 175mph, 800hp to do 200mph.
Can anyone help with the actual equation?
Regards
Gordon
Thanks for that John.
I shall look out for the rule book.
As that looks to be the answer to a lot of questions.
But even the knowledge about a roll cage,(alloy, Cro-mo?) tyers, fire system (?) and a floating diff will assist in our budget.
You could be right about the wind drag of the replica, the ride height is also an issue I would think. Anyhow just keep throwing HP at it I suppose.
I noticed that Gary Myers with about 500 HP was about done at 170 MPH, so I have no doubt that it is more difficult to achieve a REAL no-bullshit speed than to reckon you have done this or that speed.
I checked out that purposeful looking XA coupe in the pictures, good to see a classic Muscle car out there! Those guys running 190MPH with the XA body and the 351 are doing a real good job I reckon.
The coupe has a two inch factory top chop over the sedan, so it is good choice in the muscle car ranks.
The Mad Max stuff and the handling is not such a mystery. I have no doubt that the Monza nose helps when the speed goes up a bit as the stock coupes were concaved walls at the front.
We actually ran a tacho recorded 160 MPH, IE: 5800-5900 rpm with a 3:00 to 1.00 diff and 15X10's with 295X50X15 Radial T/A's (Hmmmm ... must have been in the NT!) with the 4V 351 Max Replica coupe that is now in Arizona.
And surprise surprise the replica was very flat and stable, even at 140 MPH it was flatter and more stable than my stock bodied tightened suspension road going coupe.
HOWEVER the roof spoiler must be dragging a lot of air, if you run them in the rain you can see the rain swirling into the huge low pressure area behind it, as a result the boot spoiler does almost nothing at all really.
The roof spoiler is fundamental to the replica but I agree the horses required to shove it to 300 KPH, might be more then we have got, that last 26 MPH might take a 100% more power than the 160 mph run. There must be a ratio that will allow me to work this out mathematically.
You guys must know this power vs drag vs speed equation. (Anyone)?
It must be ratio something like this:
If it takes 100 HP at the wheels to do 100 MPH, I bet it takes 200hp to do 150mph, 400hp to do 175mph, 800hp to do 200mph.
Can anyone help with the actual equation?
Regards
Gordon
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John Broughan
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:50 pm
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
You don't need a floating diff. The roll bar is 1.75 mild steel. No pipe joiners or clamps, all welded. No grinding of welds. If it stuffs up, grind it out and re weld. Tyres are easy, any V or Z rated tires are OK. I use some second hand ones, some of the others have new ones. Fire system is more complex, I use a Sparco AFFF system used in CAMS racing. Replaced the plastic lines with metal, operated by a cable. Wheels are preferred to be steel. Alloy can be used, but you need a steel washer to spread the load under the nuts. I don't know of any formula, there are a lot of variables. The horsepower output of the engine would be guess work. It depends on atmospheric conditions. The condition of the salt is also variable, but is is not as easy rolling as a road at the best of times.
John Broughan
Empty Pockets Racing
200 MPH club life member
Empty Pockets Racing
200 MPH club life member
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Gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the salt
Thanks again John.
All this information is most valuable, I shall continue to look out for the Rule book coming online.
I can see already that it will be easier for us as we are not record breakers so the fine compliance will not be applied in areas other than safety, and this is fine.
The replicas have steel wheels so that is OK. One less hurdle.
Our engine builder is ready to go with a stroked 460 big block now at 545 C.I.D. We should have about 700 Hp with good big block torque to match.
But at present we have nothing. Bugger .... pity that I am not rich.
Thank you for taking us seriously, as a movie star the Interceptor is well excepted, but in motoring circles it is generally viewed as a cosmetic gimmick and in general it is not taken seriously. However those that are part of the world wide cult following that the Interceptor has .... well they take the car very seriously. This old Aussie film car is unique as the fans are not necessarily motoring based, they can be doctors, students, film fans, car fans, the following is very diverse.
From Australia it is perhaps difficult to understand the cult following that the car has internationally because we are all so used to it. All I can say is multiply what you would expect by about 10. In the USA and more so in Japan the car is revered like a myth. A difficult concept for us with memories just a few years old we can all recall seeing broken down thrashed out XB coupes, burning out tyers in the pub car park.
To the average Aussie they were just beat up cars from the 1970's a V8 powered and now dangerous legacy of times past.
Anyhow let us hope that my American film maker friend can find the Japanese backer (and budget) that we need. So that we can film both the event and the Mad Max replica for the car and Max mad Japanese market.
I hope we see you on the Salt.
Thanks again
Kind Regards
Gordon.
All this information is most valuable, I shall continue to look out for the Rule book coming online.
I can see already that it will be easier for us as we are not record breakers so the fine compliance will not be applied in areas other than safety, and this is fine.
The replicas have steel wheels so that is OK. One less hurdle.
Our engine builder is ready to go with a stroked 460 big block now at 545 C.I.D. We should have about 700 Hp with good big block torque to match.
But at present we have nothing. Bugger .... pity that I am not rich.
Thank you for taking us seriously, as a movie star the Interceptor is well excepted, but in motoring circles it is generally viewed as a cosmetic gimmick and in general it is not taken seriously. However those that are part of the world wide cult following that the Interceptor has .... well they take the car very seriously. This old Aussie film car is unique as the fans are not necessarily motoring based, they can be doctors, students, film fans, car fans, the following is very diverse.
From Australia it is perhaps difficult to understand the cult following that the car has internationally because we are all so used to it. All I can say is multiply what you would expect by about 10. In the USA and more so in Japan the car is revered like a myth. A difficult concept for us with memories just a few years old we can all recall seeing broken down thrashed out XB coupes, burning out tyers in the pub car park.
To the average Aussie they were just beat up cars from the 1970's a V8 powered and now dangerous legacy of times past.
Anyhow let us hope that my American film maker friend can find the Japanese backer (and budget) that we need. So that we can film both the event and the Mad Max replica for the car and Max mad Japanese market.
I hope we see you on the Salt.
Thanks again
Kind Regards
Gordon.
Filming at the lake
Aside from the car, which I look forward to seeing, when planning your budget there's one thing you can't overlook: the National Park fee for commercial filming within its boundaries. This applies to any National Park, not just Lake Gairdner.
There's a form to fill out and submit, and permits to obtain, allow a few weeks for red tape.
A ranger will approach you at the event and as long as you're legit there's no problem.
We filmed as volunteers for a community TV station, not being paid, or making money from the footage - still had to got through the red-tape. The ranger had forms with him and loosened up once he decided we were completely non-commercial. He became quite friendly, but made a point of checking on us a couple of times. He was full of stories of blokes getting stuck out on the BIG part of the lake.
I unaware of the exact fee, but don't expect much change from a few grand. The Department for Environment and Heritage look after Parks and Wildlife in each State. That would be your starting point for this stuff.
Regards,
Peter Quick
There's a form to fill out and submit, and permits to obtain, allow a few weeks for red tape.
A ranger will approach you at the event and as long as you're legit there's no problem.
We filmed as volunteers for a community TV station, not being paid, or making money from the footage - still had to got through the red-tape. The ranger had forms with him and loosened up once he decided we were completely non-commercial. He became quite friendly, but made a point of checking on us a couple of times. He was full of stories of blokes getting stuck out on the BIG part of the lake.
I unaware of the exact fee, but don't expect much change from a few grand. The Department for Environment and Heritage look after Parks and Wildlife in each State. That would be your starting point for this stuff.
Regards,
Peter Quick
Regs,
PJQ
Velocity Science Laboratories
PJQ
Velocity Science Laboratories
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Gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the Salt
Thanks Peter:
I would never have known about that, I understand the Government overseeing the event because this is a true wilderness area, and I am all for protecting that.
A bit of a disappointment that the Government once again has it's hand out just in case some one makes any money. I expect that Hollywood filming Matrix or similar would only pay the same flat rate price as us small guys having a go.
Anyway (back down from the soap box) thank you very much for the advice, lets hope that we can over come all the hurdles. We would really like to go next year, that is the target.
But weather we make it or not in 2004 the target will remain.
I have driven on Salt lakes before (Lake Disappointment in 1986) So yep I understand that if you get into the soft stuff you might as well be in 20 feet of water. People have been bogged for weeks in big soft areas, they hit them at 120 KPH and are so far out by the time the vehicle stops that it is all over. I found a dead land cruiser on one, and a Cessina airplane on another! Both had been caught and the vehicles were drowned later on.
However just an awesome landscape ... just awesome.
Thanks again.
Gordon.
I would never have known about that, I understand the Government overseeing the event because this is a true wilderness area, and I am all for protecting that.
A bit of a disappointment that the Government once again has it's hand out just in case some one makes any money. I expect that Hollywood filming Matrix or similar would only pay the same flat rate price as us small guys having a go.
Anyway (back down from the soap box) thank you very much for the advice, lets hope that we can over come all the hurdles. We would really like to go next year, that is the target.
But weather we make it or not in 2004 the target will remain.
I have driven on Salt lakes before (Lake Disappointment in 1986) So yep I understand that if you get into the soft stuff you might as well be in 20 feet of water. People have been bogged for weeks in big soft areas, they hit them at 120 KPH and are so far out by the time the vehicle stops that it is all over. I found a dead land cruiser on one, and a Cessina airplane on another! Both had been caught and the vehicles were drowned later on.
However just an awesome landscape ... just awesome.
Thanks again.
Gordon.
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hawkwind racing
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 7:59 pm
- Location: Captains Flat
- Contact:
gordon
here is a formula to find how much power you need for a certian speed
force= total drag + total rolling resistance + transmission losses X MPH divided by 375 = HP
but you need to know what drag your vehicle has here is a formula to work out drag
drag = Af X Cd X 0.00256 X speed squared
Af = frontal area in square inches
Cd = coefficient of drag NB non dimential number only found in a wind tunnel as an aproximation use 0.035
0.00256 = air density
drag will be in pounds
also to get a rough aprox of rolling resistance use this formula
rolling resistance = vehicle mass X 0.013
I use 15% as a rough estimate for transmission losses
mate as you can see your drag is a squared function of speed and alas power is a cubed function of speed
hope you can use these
Hawkwind racing
Gary mem # 282
here is a formula to find how much power you need for a certian speed
force= total drag + total rolling resistance + transmission losses X MPH divided by 375 = HP
but you need to know what drag your vehicle has here is a formula to work out drag
drag = Af X Cd X 0.00256 X speed squared
Af = frontal area in square inches
Cd = coefficient of drag NB non dimential number only found in a wind tunnel as an aproximation use 0.035
0.00256 = air density
drag will be in pounds
also to get a rough aprox of rolling resistance use this formula
rolling resistance = vehicle mass X 0.013
I use 15% as a rough estimate for transmission losses
mate as you can see your drag is a squared function of speed and alas power is a cubed function of speed
hope you can use these
Hawkwind racing
Gary mem # 282
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Gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the salt
Thanks Gary.
Looks like I shall need the calculator, I figured that there would be a mathematical formula that could be applied.
The variances are always unknown. I can see that the resistance of the Salt will adjust things along with, humidity, air density etc there is a lot of things that will offer a lot of potential deviations from the calculator figure. A good rule of the thumb however.
Have you tested the formula with a vehicle?
Now about that "Hawkwind" tag... Hmmmm I am 46 I was weird enough at 16 to have fond memories of Hawkwind.. are you "In Search of Space" perhaps??
Regards
Gordon
Looks like I shall need the calculator, I figured that there would be a mathematical formula that could be applied.
The variances are always unknown. I can see that the resistance of the Salt will adjust things along with, humidity, air density etc there is a lot of things that will offer a lot of potential deviations from the calculator figure. A good rule of the thumb however.
Have you tested the formula with a vehicle?
Now about that "Hawkwind" tag... Hmmmm I am 46 I was weird enough at 16 to have fond memories of Hawkwind.. are you "In Search of Space" perhaps??
Regards
Gordon
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hawkwind racing
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 7:59 pm
- Location: Captains Flat
- Contact:
-
gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the Salt
Hey Hawkwind.
Cool.
You must have the booklet that came with "In Search of Space". I lost mine years ago but I remember that it was a great complement to the Album.
It was full of mind twisting stuff. It referenced the Tao and tons of other cool stuff I had never heard of at 16.
After reading the booklet I discovered that reading was more than "Biggles" and went onto read the "The Last Whole Earth Catalogue" which was great but has been out of Print for about 30 years I think!
Musically I drifted from Hawkwind to Genesis just the early Genesis stuff "Watcher of the Skies" , "Suppers ready", "Lamb Lies down on Broardway". I listened to a lot of "Yes" as well.
Anyhow nothing to do with salt racing, I am way off the topic
so I better go. Thanks again for the formula
Regards
Gordon
PS: Not the "Road Warrior" perhaps the "Warrior on the edge of time".
Cool.
You must have the booklet that came with "In Search of Space". I lost mine years ago but I remember that it was a great complement to the Album.
It was full of mind twisting stuff. It referenced the Tao and tons of other cool stuff I had never heard of at 16.
After reading the booklet I discovered that reading was more than "Biggles" and went onto read the "The Last Whole Earth Catalogue" which was great but has been out of Print for about 30 years I think!
Musically I drifted from Hawkwind to Genesis just the early Genesis stuff "Watcher of the Skies" , "Suppers ready", "Lamb Lies down on Broardway". I listened to a lot of "Yes" as well.
Anyhow nothing to do with salt racing, I am way off the topic
so I better go. Thanks again for the formula
Regards
Gordon
PS: Not the "Road Warrior" perhaps the "Warrior on the edge of time".
-
Gordon Hayes
Mad Max on the Salt
Hi All
I have just dropped back in after all this time.
The disappointing news for me is that I shall not be at the Salt lake this year.
For me to attend in 2004 I really need to secure a film crew to help with either the initial cost or at worst a potential cost recovery plan.
I am still pursuing the idea, but the time frame and cost eludes me for this year.
So the idea is shelved and not abandoned.
Cost as always is the big issue, in the end I still have a mortgage, I work for a wage and do not own a business or any kind of money machine. So like almost everyone else many, many financial drains on the pay packet, so economy is a fact of life.
Even though I work two jobs. It can't happen this year.
The good news is at least the 460 big block Mad Max replica is coming together, it is already booked to appear at the Motivation car show in Perth this summer.
So the replica will be running and at Car show standard, but not roll cage equipped and built to "Salt standard" this year.
I shall continue following this idea of filming the event and the Mad Max pursuit special replica participation.
I am convinced that a financial return can be obtained by an investor with strong sales to Japan and the USA, ( We have just sent a replica to Japan, www.ps-car.com )
And in fact early negotiation's for a filming sponsor are occurring on several fronts so there is an interest.
Hope the event goes well for 2004, And I hope to see you in 2005.
Kind Regards
Gordon
I have just dropped back in after all this time.
The disappointing news for me is that I shall not be at the Salt lake this year.
For me to attend in 2004 I really need to secure a film crew to help with either the initial cost or at worst a potential cost recovery plan.
I am still pursuing the idea, but the time frame and cost eludes me for this year.
So the idea is shelved and not abandoned.
Cost as always is the big issue, in the end I still have a mortgage, I work for a wage and do not own a business or any kind of money machine. So like almost everyone else many, many financial drains on the pay packet, so economy is a fact of life.
Even though I work two jobs. It can't happen this year.
The good news is at least the 460 big block Mad Max replica is coming together, it is already booked to appear at the Motivation car show in Perth this summer.
So the replica will be running and at Car show standard, but not roll cage equipped and built to "Salt standard" this year.
I shall continue following this idea of filming the event and the Mad Max pursuit special replica participation.
I am convinced that a financial return can be obtained by an investor with strong sales to Japan and the USA, ( We have just sent a replica to Japan, www.ps-car.com )
And in fact early negotiation's for a filming sponsor are occurring on several fronts so there is an interest.
Hope the event goes well for 2004, And I hope to see you in 2005.
Kind Regards
Gordon