Does unleaded gasoline with high octane ratings, i.e. above 100, such as those produced by "VP fuels" fit into the "G" or "F" class?
I'm guessing that these fuels are an unleaded as produced by the major refining companies with additives from the final distributor ( like VP ). If so ..are the additives allowed in the "G" classes.
Or maybe I should just ask .... what fuels are permitted to be used in the "G" classes?
Gnomester, you & I were thinking the same thing at the same time. Snap!
I was just sorting out how high a compression ratio I should be looking for in my 50cc project's motor.
The rule book is kinda non-specific as to what is "gasoline":
From DLRA Rules:
3.2. Fuels: In fuel classes, any approved liquid fuel may be used. Approved fuels are: nitrous oxide, nitromethane blends, alcohol and non-approved gasoline. The contest board may choose any test or combination of tests to assure liquid fuels used in 'GAS' classes comply with specifications. The tests may include but not be limited to dielectric testing, colour comparisons, specific gravity and/or other testing methods. The addition of compounds containing nitrogen and/or oxygen may produce a mixture with a D.C. greater than 2.3. Most gasolines will meet this criteria. It is recommended that unknown gas be checked before use in competition. If a DLRA sponsor provides an 'EVENT' gas or diesel fuel, that product MUST be used for record attempts at the event. Water injection is allowed. The water tank must be inspected and sealed prior to each record run. When a specific class is not available engines using LPG, natural gas or diesel fuel may compete in gasoline classes. Hydrogen fuelled vehicles are not permitted at this time.
While the dielectric constant of the fuel is useful information, how does pump petrol normally measure? Does Avgas suit the cited DC?
If I can run avgas as "gasoline" quite obviously my dimensions will change when I am sorting out how much to shave off the cyl head.
G,day I can answer this question ,im the scrutineer for motorcycles , and this very question came up at the 2004 meet as my interpretation differed to that of the chief scrut , so "gas " is defined as any hydrocarbon based petrol weather its PUMP petrol or speciallity petrol as in avgas or VP and any octane rating ,leaded or unleaded , fuel will be classed as "methanol or any alky " "nitromethane " and if you use nitrous oxide ( which is NOT a fuel ) with petrol or other hopefully this is of some assistance
Gary
I can see the answer to my vague question within your two posts.
Just another thought... Will Avgas (leaded) have a future after 2005 in LSR or is the DLRA required to, (like most other racing bodies in Aus) by the EPA stop competitors using leaded fuels after June next year?
Will 2005 be the last year for competitors to run Avgas?
Regarding questions on fuel,in USA its easy you buy their gas and they seal your tank OR you supply your own fuel which you can also buy at the fuel tanker. Out here perhaps it needs to be discussed John Lynch
As long as the "discussion" leads to an action point and that will indeed be enforced out on the salt.
Better make up ya minds early as I'm building another engine for next year and I can obviously benefit from running oxygenated fuels and higher Octane #'s. if you definately wish to go down this path.
Just for the record I used 98 BP Ultimate PUMP FUEL this year in my bike.
Humming and ahhing about this isnt the way to go. Need to make some clear well communicated directives on this issue so that competitors know exactly what is acceptable and what clearly isnt.
Look forward to a response
1 FAST HAYABUSA 217.443mph so far
9 Official Timeslips over 200mph
Very much the apprentice
Hi all, May I suggest that you have a maximum octane rating of 98
and we can use any of the premium fuels such as BP SHELL or MOBIL.
This way it will cut costs, put everybody in the same boat and the fuel
is always available.
A quick decision by the powers that be would also be appreciated.
Cheers
SPOOK
Righto a small history lesson and a small chemistry 101, this is gunna open up a can of fresh worms .
Behind the scenes some things have been happening about (GAS) & (FUEL), I submitted a rule change request last August ,as there was a need to clarify this issue , which has been looked at ,but to date no action or changes have been ruled apon , I have my own personal ideas as to what constitutes fuel or petrol which are straight "black & white " but others may prefer shades of grey . our rules come directly from the SCTA and our Gasolene rules are an exact copy from the 2001or 2002 SCTA rules see section 5.15 asks for a test method applied to petrol ie. its dielectric constant ,firstly we dont have the test equipment ,or to my knowledge anyone to operate it if we did , secondly as already pointed out the SCTA supplies an approved gasolene which is purchased through an approved supplier end of story , again we don't have this facility at Gairdner , now on to what is petrol and changes to petrol that are clouding the issue
Petrol is a hydrocarbon ,as the word spells out it contains atoms of hydrogen & carbon nothing else ,in different combinations ,petrol is literally a soup of hydrocarbons 500+ of these it contains stable HC's ( paraffins , alkanes) and unstable HC's ( olefins , aromatics , and trace amounts of alkynes and pna"s ) so we see that petrol is strictly a hydrocarbon, now we start to muddy the waters , petrol also contains lots of other stuff the companies put in for other purposes , one of these purposes is to increase its "octane rating " the most common was TEL ( lead) we all know that lead is a big no no and is being fazed out and I suspect even "leaded racing gas" will soon be banned , so what is available to replace lead as an octane booster ,we can use either aromatics (a hydrocarbon) eg Toluene / benzine / xylene , benzine is out as it is a known carcinogen, so toluene is used in proportions up tp 50% in petrol but usually up to 35% but this causes problems with emissions so the other way to increase octane rating is to use oxygenates these are hydrocarbons with an oxygen atom /s added, the oxygenates used in petrol are either alcohols or ethers , now this is where the problem arises , according to our rules "ALCOHOL" is a fuel so therefore all these oxygenates should also be a "fuel" methanol, ethanol, MTBE, TAME,ETBE, ) which are all used in pump and race unleaded petrol in varying amounts .
so where to from here ? as you can see it gets quite complicated , if for instance if my prefered method is used ( gas is strictly a hydrocarbon) this makes it simple in one way but complicated in others ,as it would make most pump petrol a FUEL ( oxygenates ) so it comes down to testing all competitors petrol for the aproved DC ?or allowing an X % of oxygenates in petrol ? how do you test for this ? or making an arbitary ruling 98 octane or less is petrol above is a fuel ? insert your method here -------?
Gary
What did you submit last August ? for consideration ? and to who? what was the outcome ? Who has the authority in this club to make a decision and more to the point are they capable???
Need a line in the sand. And soon .
1 FAST HAYABUSA 217.443mph so far
9 Official Timeslips over 200mph
Very much the apprentice
Forgot to mention Gary ( Hawkwind) thanks for the info above, this will help those as to why there is a "grey" area and indeed there is technically.
If the club cant police what they decide then its open slather.... and that's fine.
If they are going to police what the decide on then that's fine too.
Just , however it is ..get there act together and dont wait till the end of the year.
WHO is the decision maker in the club ?? pls come forward.
This will up the ante gnomester, whoever you are??
1 FAST HAYABUSA 217.443mph so far
9 Official Timeslips over 200mph
Very much the apprentice
Gazza and any others interested , there is a volunteer base of club members who try to come up with reasonable measures to sort out the club rules ,in the area of what constitutes Gas or Fuel the technical committee would be responsible for this , I believe this committee comprises of 1. club pres , 2 race director/s 3. chief scrutineer and maybe now myself as motorcycle scrutineer , you must remember that as volunteers we all only have a limited amount of time to research and then try to implement a "reasonable solution "to all the requests that are submitted and I suspect a lot falls on the plate of John Dawson , Garry the committee is aware of this problem ,but there is no definative answer / solution yet .
in 2004 a decision was made by the then chief scrutineer that the following would apply to "Gas /Fuel " as I understood it GASOLENE is any petrol that can be obtained from A. petrol company supplied PUMP petrol regardless of its makeup as long as it was sold as petrol and 2. any packaged racing petrol regardless of it contents as long as it was sold as petrol , as we dont have any way of testing petrol or have a fuel company supplying a controlled range of petrols . this is what will apply untill a verifiable solution is found .
so you are free to use an oxygenated petrol of what ever octane rating that is available AS long as it is sold as petrol .
TO all that read this feel free to submit any information that you believe is approprate and will further help find a solution to one of the committee members
thanks
Gary
