'56 Oval
Moderator: DLRA
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David Leikvold
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:57 pm
- Location: Brisbane
buzz
Mick, if it's easier and faster to hard mount the engine and gearbox just do it. It won't add much vibration to the car (it's already a race car running on a less than perfect surface) and will add to the sensation of the experience. Don't slow down, you're doing well, the quality of your work is excellent. And there's still January and February to go. I keep telling myself that too, I really hope we make it this year. Waiting another year because a few jobs took longer than expected would really suck.
Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two!
I think I've just arrived at same conclusion. I bought some urethane mounts to use but these require trimming to fit the box casting as it's slightly different from the VW one, but after trimming, there simply isn't enough strength for my liking - probably fine for a street car but not for serious competition. Plus, I hit another issue - there isn't enough clearance between the inside of the bellhousing and the flywheel to fit the mounting bolts in. On the earlier 901 box the casting is the same as VW - there are two recesses on each side for the bolts - on the 915 box they don't exist and th metal is too thin to machine a counter bore, so it's either use bolts with a very shallow head, or look to an alternative.
Solid mounting, seems the logical choice.
Back out to the garage now
Will keep you posted...
Solid mounting, seems the logical choice.
Back out to the garage now
Will keep you posted...
#809
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Dr Goggles
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:23 pm
- Location: Right behind you Chief !
pain
Also started the IRS conversion by clearancing the frame ready for the pivot housings to be welded in. These need some clearancing to fit the rear torsion bar tubes, which considering that they are laser cut is a poor show. If I had known that they would be so poor quality I would have fabbed some myself, especially as now I have to waste time putting them right.
The number of times we copped that.
So many times we'd buy something only to butcher it to fit and then in the end arrive at the conclusion we could have just built it from scratch, better, for a quarter of the cost. That's where the money goes, and sadly where most of the frustration comes from...............few understand what I'm trying to do , but they vastly outnumber those who understand why..
Progress was good today, managed to get the IRS finished, all that is required is the final welding and a little patching where I've relocated teh handbrake cable to the lower half of the pan. I will leave the final welding until after I have had a chance to get the car back on it's wheels with the engine in place so that I can check the wheel alignment out - this will need to be done with a little weight in the car.
Yesterday I made up a temporary support for the gearbox, which has allowed me to turn the pan right way up and retain the gearbox in the correct position, this will allow me to fit the engine and check out clearances and take measurements for the header system.
I also started to fit the narrowed front beam up, and will get this finished tomorrow.
First job tomorrow is to get the pan halves welded in place and then get the body back on the pan. Then I can trial fit the engine and make sure that everything fits. I will need to clearance the rear luggage area in the pan so that it clears the gearbox nosecone as the 915 box is a bit bigger, i will trim this back and box it in with some new steel.
Overall I'm pretty pleased with progress, and confident that the body and pan should be rolling again tomorrow - ready for it's journey to get the cage made up.
Plans are then to make up turbo headers without car - I can then take engine to Dyno to get EFI mapped - all whilst cage is being built - this is hopefully going to be biggest time saving - otherwise I doubt I would make March.
Anyhows - here's some pics...
Clearancing 915 case
'stock' urethane VW mounts also need clearancing to fit 915 case
Pan cut for selector shaft
Making up a temporary gearbox mount from flat bar to allow gearbox to be retained in correct position.
Gearbox temporarily fitted
Marking out location for IRS pivots
IRS pivots in place before tacking up - note handbrake cable relocated too. Frame horns have also been dressed in to close up gap you can see at top and a new piece of metal will be let in to close up hole where handbrake cable was. These brackets have had a lot of work done on them as they were originally incorrect - the diameter of the torsion tubes is 70mm, the bracket was only 50mm so i had to machine it out to correct it.
Pan right way up and IRS fitted.
Had to add in the moon discs - just for research purposes of course. For those who are interested - the rear hub clears fine but front disc fouls bearing cover - I need to source some safety rims (double bead) will make sure that I get some with a suitable width to eliminate this issue
Yesterday I made up a temporary support for the gearbox, which has allowed me to turn the pan right way up and retain the gearbox in the correct position, this will allow me to fit the engine and check out clearances and take measurements for the header system.
I also started to fit the narrowed front beam up, and will get this finished tomorrow.
First job tomorrow is to get the pan halves welded in place and then get the body back on the pan. Then I can trial fit the engine and make sure that everything fits. I will need to clearance the rear luggage area in the pan so that it clears the gearbox nosecone as the 915 box is a bit bigger, i will trim this back and box it in with some new steel.
Overall I'm pretty pleased with progress, and confident that the body and pan should be rolling again tomorrow - ready for it's journey to get the cage made up.
Plans are then to make up turbo headers without car - I can then take engine to Dyno to get EFI mapped - all whilst cage is being built - this is hopefully going to be biggest time saving - otherwise I doubt I would make March.
Anyhows - here's some pics...
Clearancing 915 case
'stock' urethane VW mounts also need clearancing to fit 915 case
Pan cut for selector shaft
Making up a temporary gearbox mount from flat bar to allow gearbox to be retained in correct position.
Gearbox temporarily fitted
Marking out location for IRS pivots
IRS pivots in place before tacking up - note handbrake cable relocated too. Frame horns have also been dressed in to close up gap you can see at top and a new piece of metal will be let in to close up hole where handbrake cable was. These brackets have had a lot of work done on them as they were originally incorrect - the diameter of the torsion tubes is 70mm, the bracket was only 50mm so i had to machine it out to correct it.
Pan right way up and IRS fitted.
Had to add in the moon discs - just for research purposes of course. For those who are interested - the rear hub clears fine but front disc fouls bearing cover - I need to source some safety rims (double bead) will make sure that I get some with a suitable width to eliminate this issue
#809
Ahh yes - nearly forgot.
I picked up the fuel cell - this will be mounted in the stock location. AFAIK this is fine, it is outside the drivers compartment so fire suppression still only required for driver and engine compartments, will need to do a little work to seal forward bulkhead as radio cutout etc go straight through to front compartment - rules say it has to be sealed. Any tips for how to seal this - don't really want to weld it up - will mastic type sealer be okay?
I picked up the fuel cell - this will be mounted in the stock location. AFAIK this is fine, it is outside the drivers compartment so fire suppression still only required for driver and engine compartments, will need to do a little work to seal forward bulkhead as radio cutout etc go straight through to front compartment - rules say it has to be sealed. Any tips for how to seal this - don't really want to weld it up - will mastic type sealer be okay?
#809
Made more good progress today, i fitted the new pan halves and got the body back on the pan. Somehow I managed to do this by myself - I guess it's a lot easier if you're not worried about scratching paint. I postponed fitting up the new front beam as I didn't have an adjustable 18-22mm reamer, which is necessary for reaming out the king pins to fit after they are pressed into position. I will try to source another beam as a doner and then outsource getting the king and link pins fitted as it will probably cost about the same as an adjustable reamer.
With the body in place the next thing was to get the engine trial fitted to make sure that there was enough clearance for everything, and to take measurements for the header system, but with the engine in place, several things became apparent.
The engine sits about 2 inches further back than normal - this means that the rear valance will need to be clearanced - not too big an issue, and one that I was expecting.
The second problem was that the injector bosses I had welded into the inlet manifolds foul the engine bay bodywork - but this too can be addressed with a grinder and a little imagination. I also had to remove the rocker covers to slide the engine in position, but the car was not on ramps and so this should not normally be an issue.
The rocker covers also foul the rear bodywork and so more tin will need to be removed to allow the rocker boxes to be fitted / removed with the engine in position, I will look into using stock steel covers instead of the finned aluminium ones I currently have to see if this gains me a bit more clearance.
By far the worst issue was that the Porsche cooling setup that I currently have prevents the engine lid from being closed.
One solution would be to run deck lid standoffs, but this can be seen as 'streamlining' or trying to improve the aerodynamics. I could add a bulge to the lid, but that's also not something that I really want to do to a perfectly good W deck lid.
My only solution is to use something like a Cali cooling setup - this uses a Type 1 fan housing, mated to Type 4 cooling tin, not too hard a job to fabricate, but a bit of an issue for the generator stand as there is nowhere for it to bolt to on my engine. Sharpbuilt, here in Australia offer a complete upright VW style cooling solution for the Type 4 engine, but the generator stand bolts to the stock Type 4 breather tower - my breather tower has been machined off to allow the fan to be mounted directly to the engine so that it sits lower, not an insurmountable issue, but additional work I wasn't bargaining for.
Here's one I made earlier...
The problems don't end there either, the turbo is also proving to be a bit of an issue to locate, the ideal position is behind the rear valence - which is perfect for a Garret T03 or similar, but not so for the RayJay unit I have - it's huge in comparison. This means that ideally I need to fabricate the headers with the engine in the car as the clearances are simply too tight. I also considered cutting out the rear luggage area and installing it there with a cover made up to house it.
Lots to think about. Lots of new issues to address. But at least the pan is now ready to go off to get the cage made.
#809
Cheers Chris, would like to have put more time in and made more progress, but I think that would end in a divorce - lol
Delivered the oval to Donegal Engineering today to have the cage made up, big thanks to Paul Penny and his brother for helping out, was good to hook up. Sorry I couldn't have stayed a bit longer, but had an appointment at upullit to get a throttle body.
Managed to pick up a suitable throttle from a Ford - wouldn't know what type it was but it had a 3.9 EFI 6 cylinder. The I/D is about 70mm and it comes complete with a TPS and MAP sensor (probably no good for my EFI - lol)
So, with the car out of the way, my attention needs to switch to making up the headers. I basically need to get the engine running and then take it to an engine dyno to get the EFI map sorted. This means - headers + induction + wiring + cooling + oil system need to be sorted.
Part of the induction system should be arriving this week, along with the oil cooler, and the cooling system. I still need to source some parts for cooling system, as well as wheels and other bits and bobs, so will try to go have a bit of a shopping trip next week.
I will make the headers up from mandrel bends - the system is 1 1/2" so just need to get a selection of bends and flanges and get busy with the welder.
Another thing I need to tackle whilst the car is out of the picture is an off road welding trolley - damn gravel driveways are a right PITA.
Delivered the oval to Donegal Engineering today to have the cage made up, big thanks to Paul Penny and his brother for helping out, was good to hook up. Sorry I couldn't have stayed a bit longer, but had an appointment at upullit to get a throttle body.
Managed to pick up a suitable throttle from a Ford - wouldn't know what type it was but it had a 3.9 EFI 6 cylinder. The I/D is about 70mm and it comes complete with a TPS and MAP sensor (probably no good for my EFI - lol)
So, with the car out of the way, my attention needs to switch to making up the headers. I basically need to get the engine running and then take it to an engine dyno to get the EFI map sorted. This means - headers + induction + wiring + cooling + oil system need to be sorted.
Part of the induction system should be arriving this week, along with the oil cooler, and the cooling system. I still need to source some parts for cooling system, as well as wheels and other bits and bobs, so will try to go have a bit of a shopping trip next week.
I will make the headers up from mandrel bends - the system is 1 1/2" so just need to get a selection of bends and flanges and get busy with the welder.
Another thing I need to tackle whilst the car is out of the picture is an off road welding trolley - damn gravel driveways are a right PITA.
#809
Feel a bit lost without the car to work on, so have been a bit slack. Have spent the time doing a spot of research on ye olde interwobble, trying to track down some cheap gauges. Found some flea bay specials for a very reasonable price - oil pressure, oil temp, boost pressure and a 5" tacho for not very much dollahs. They're el-cheapo snide Autometer clones, but will do the job for time being, which is likely to be one weeks use at speed week - assuming the car lasts a week that is
Picked up all of the stuff to make up the headers with - lots of 90 degree mandrel bends, a 4 into 1 collector, flanges etc, and a nice bit of 6mm x 100mm flat bar to make up the turbo mounting flange from. The header will be a 1 1/2" system into a 2 3/4" collector up to the turbo. The exit from the turbo is 3". I will make this up myself as it's simply the quickest way to do it.
I've also been down to see the bug a couple of times to work out a few issues with cage design and also drop off the seat. The rear floor has now been cut out of the body to allow the cage to be permanently welded to the floor pan and frame horns whilst still allowing the body to be removed. This means that I now have a lot of room in the rear of the car to put the turbo as I can box this in afterwards with a new firewall. Another great bonus is that I can also fit an intecooler in an ice bucket inside the car - well it would be a bonus except that there is no ice van this year as they're all at the Clipsal
The cage now has the main hoop made up with the cross brace in place, and the brackets welded on for the cage to join up to the frame horns. All of a sudden, its starting to look like race car.
The front beam is being made up and (fingers crossed) I've also managed to source a set of wheels with safety beads.
Unfortunately the slackers at CB performance still haven't dispatched my order, which I'm a bit pi$$ed off about - especially as the extortionate super fast shipping is costing as much as my order is. Not so super fast now is it. Hopefully this isn't going to hold me up.
Got some more pics, but as usual, haven't had time to upload them yet, will post them when I do.
Picked up all of the stuff to make up the headers with - lots of 90 degree mandrel bends, a 4 into 1 collector, flanges etc, and a nice bit of 6mm x 100mm flat bar to make up the turbo mounting flange from. The header will be a 1 1/2" system into a 2 3/4" collector up to the turbo. The exit from the turbo is 3". I will make this up myself as it's simply the quickest way to do it.
I've also been down to see the bug a couple of times to work out a few issues with cage design and also drop off the seat. The rear floor has now been cut out of the body to allow the cage to be permanently welded to the floor pan and frame horns whilst still allowing the body to be removed. This means that I now have a lot of room in the rear of the car to put the turbo as I can box this in afterwards with a new firewall. Another great bonus is that I can also fit an intecooler in an ice bucket inside the car - well it would be a bonus except that there is no ice van this year as they're all at the Clipsal
The cage now has the main hoop made up with the cross brace in place, and the brackets welded on for the cage to join up to the frame horns. All of a sudden, its starting to look like race car.
The front beam is being made up and (fingers crossed) I've also managed to source a set of wheels with safety beads.
Unfortunately the slackers at CB performance still haven't dispatched my order, which I'm a bit pi$$ed off about - especially as the extortionate super fast shipping is costing as much as my order is. Not so super fast now is it. Hopefully this isn't going to hold me up.
Got some more pics, but as usual, haven't had time to upload them yet, will post them when I do.
#809
Some pics
Off to Donegal Engineering for the cage. front is sitting too high as old suspension is still in place to allow me to transport it.
Throttle body for turbo setup. it's 52mm - same (maybe slightly bigger) as rest of induction system - not 100% if this is right way to go but just need to get thing finished. I figure no point in having it larger than rest of system as it won't make it flow any better. I originally got a body from a 3.9 ford but this was simply too large to marry up with rest of system without having reducers. Interestingly this throttle body has two springs as the throttle linkage also went to the auto gearbox for the kickdown- so meets guidelines for needing two return springs.
Headers laid out - this is actually pretty close to how it will be except that collector is vertical, as are the stubs that fit to the exhaust ports.
Off to Donegal Engineering for the cage. front is sitting too high as old suspension is still in place to allow me to transport it.
Throttle body for turbo setup. it's 52mm - same (maybe slightly bigger) as rest of induction system - not 100% if this is right way to go but just need to get thing finished. I figure no point in having it larger than rest of system as it won't make it flow any better. I originally got a body from a 3.9 ford but this was simply too large to marry up with rest of system without having reducers. Interestingly this throttle body has two springs as the throttle linkage also went to the auto gearbox for the kickdown- so meets guidelines for needing two return springs.
Headers laid out - this is actually pretty close to how it will be except that collector is vertical, as are the stubs that fit to the exhaust ports.
#809
Been trying to get in touch with Bob Ellis regarding some scrutineering questions that I have but haven't managed to get a reply as I don't think my phone leaves a number, and I'm guessing he is too busy working to answer it when I get to call him.
Anyhows, If any scrutineers read this, you thoughts would be most welcomed.
First up - class. I need to send in my entry, so I've been trying to figure out what class I should be in. I've pretty much figured I should be in F engine class (80x103mm) and blown, but I cannot figure out the rest as I get confused at the terms gas and fuel and couldn't figure out the petrochemical science stuff in the rulebook.
To us Poms this sounds like Pump gas and race fuel?, although we call it petrol - lol. (Although gas is also for cooking roast beef). Anyhows, I plan to use 109 race fuel, so where does this fit?
Regarding the rest, the engine I non stock and blown so PRO is out of the question, and I want to remove the bumpers, which I guess puts me in ALT, although they could be bolted back on for a go at MOD as well?
So my guess is F/BFALT ? is this correct?
Second off. The cage.
We are building the cage so that it has a main hoop with a diagonal brace and a shoulder bar. The hoop has two rear braces that join to the rear frame horns (chassis) to provide forward / rearward support, and also two forward braces that go to the bottom of the A pillar to provide side protection. All build details are as per rules (floor plates / tube size / gussets / welds / etc...)
Is this adequate? or do I need a full cage?
Cheers.
Mick.
Anyhows, If any scrutineers read this, you thoughts would be most welcomed.
First up - class. I need to send in my entry, so I've been trying to figure out what class I should be in. I've pretty much figured I should be in F engine class (80x103mm) and blown, but I cannot figure out the rest as I get confused at the terms gas and fuel and couldn't figure out the petrochemical science stuff in the rulebook.
To us Poms this sounds like Pump gas and race fuel?, although we call it petrol - lol. (Although gas is also for cooking roast beef). Anyhows, I plan to use 109 race fuel, so where does this fit?
Regarding the rest, the engine I non stock and blown so PRO is out of the question, and I want to remove the bumpers, which I guess puts me in ALT, although they could be bolted back on for a go at MOD as well?
So my guess is F/BFALT ? is this correct?
Second off. The cage.
We are building the cage so that it has a main hoop with a diagonal brace and a shoulder bar. The hoop has two rear braces that join to the rear frame horns (chassis) to provide forward / rearward support, and also two forward braces that go to the bottom of the A pillar to provide side protection. All build details are as per rules (floor plates / tube size / gussets / welds / etc...)
Is this adequate? or do I need a full cage?
Cheers.
Mick.
#809
Assuming you have the correct class, you'll be running on an open record. I could advise you on what I thought RE class but I'm not a club official so it'd mean nothing.
How fast do you believe you will wind up going?
Remembering that weight isn't a penalty on the salt and given you are installing the cage now anyhow, why wouldn't you just go ahead and install a full cage?
I do realise your time constraints but a few extra lengths of tube now, whilst everything else is out of the car.....
Cheers,
Rob
How fast do you believe you will wind up going?
Remembering that weight isn't a penalty on the salt and given you are installing the cage now anyhow, why wouldn't you just go ahead and install a full cage?
I do realise your time constraints but a few extra lengths of tube now, whilst everything else is out of the car.....
Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.
Rob wrote:Assuming you have the correct class, you'll be running on an open record. I could advise you on what I thought RE class but I'm not a club official so it'd mean nothing.
How fast do you believe you will wind up going?
Remembering that weight isn't a penalty on the salt and given you are installing the cage now anyhow, why wouldn't you just go ahead and install a full cage?
I do realise your time constraints but a few extra lengths of tube now, whilst everything else is out of the car.....
Cheers,
Rob
The car is geared for 150. but this means nothing, I would be happy to get 120, which I think is achievable. Power shouldn't be an issue, gearing shouldn't be an issue, it just comes down to grip versus drag, and as everyone knows - this is very hard to quantify.
I totally agree on the extra lengths of tube - and I was half hoping that someone would tell me I HAVE to do it (problem sorted). But time is a constraint, and I am trying really hard to get it all done in time.
I will be going down to see car in an hour or so, and will ask the question...
#809
I'm having a good chuckle here.
Don't tell me that if your car does 120mph this year you're just going to walk away? Bank on your 150, it may not happen this year nor next but I'm betting you'll keep trying to go faster one way or another.
With what you have already accomplished in a relativey short space of time, a whole 'nther year shuld see a miracle.
Cheers,
Rob
Don't tell me that if your car does 120mph this year you're just going to walk away? Bank on your 150, it may not happen this year nor next but I'm betting you'll keep trying to go faster one way or another.
With what you have already accomplished in a relativey short space of time, a whole 'nther year shuld see a miracle.
Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.
Ahh yeah, 120 is not my ultimate goal - that's just a reasonable target for this year. I would like to see 150 out of it, and who knows, maybe faster, but I won't kid myself that I will get there first time out.
I finally managed to get in touch with Bob Ellis, his recommendation is that it should be a full cage, he also said that things will be tightening up for next year. Fortunately I spoke to him just in time, any later and I would have been bringing the car home as was.
So a full cage it is, although it's eaten into another week of build time
Guess I wont be getting too much sleep over the following couple of months.
I finally managed to get in touch with Bob Ellis, his recommendation is that it should be a full cage, he also said that things will be tightening up for next year. Fortunately I spoke to him just in time, any later and I would have been bringing the car home as was.
So a full cage it is, although it's eaten into another week of build time
Guess I wont be getting too much sleep over the following couple of months.
#809