'56 Oval

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by AuotonomousRX » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:15 pm

Hey there Mick, welcome back ......

that is a real tidy S/C set up ... 8)

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Pete :shock:
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harky
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by harky » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:01 pm

MMMMMMMMMM yeh wecome back --- nice
The KISS has a lot going for it
and My guess the bonus is some throttle response over 80k s
what did you do with the ignition position-ing ?
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so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

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T-34
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:30 pm

Thanks :D

I've limited overall advance to 24 degrees by bending in the stops in the mech advance dizzy. I did play with a dual vac can for a while on the stock SVDA dizzy to try and get vac advance when not on boost and cancel out the advance when it came on boost but had a bit of trouble getting it to work reliably so had to junk it in favour of a Bosch 009 (mech only). This works really well with generally no detonation at all - even under heavy load (which is quite often as the kombi is always fully loaded with camping gear) but has sacrificed the low down drivability a little due to the loss of the vac advance. In reality this just means that you need a little more gas when pulling away or accelerating from low revs.

Of course the original goal was a simple setup for a street motor not a screaming race car so it's never really been an issue. The bus pulls really well - way past 80ks in fact the only limiting thing is the gear ratios as it still has the 1600 gearbox. I recon this kind of setup would work really well in the oval with the 915 gearbox. Should have enough torque to pull it well past 100 and hopefully past 125. The gearing is there it's just a case of whether the engine can turn it and I'm pretty sure it can.

Other than the modified dizzy the engine in the bus is completely stock. The stock cam works really well, it only has 11.5 degrees of overlap, which could be better but is not too bad considering. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement and I feel that it is nowhere near it's full potential. I did run a test at 12psi and things really rocked but without any form of ignition retard under boost detonation was a big issue.

Although I already have a stock 1600 ready to go, the more I think about the build what I would really like to do is build an engine with stock 1600 displacement but with a chromo crank and rods, forged pistons, stainless valves and a modest port and flow job on stock style heads. Retain the stock cam but fit high lift rockers and set everything up to handle higher boost - e.g. oil squirters, ceramic coating etc. Then I can crank things up a little. :twisted:

Guess I will see how I go getting the rest of the car back together first.
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T-34
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:55 am

Got one step closer today, managed to pick up a nice set of extractors.

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Once I could get my plasma back up and running I will cut out some flanges and make myself a megaphone. Any ideas on size / angle of taper / etc? Never made one before.
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by Stayt`ie » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:24 am

with n/a motors all exhaust system calculations are relivant to exhaust cam specs, however im figgering a blowers gunna blow them calcs out the pipe, :lol: ,,
with a meggy, ive found that on the high revvin (11,000rpm) motorcycle motors, a 1.5*taper works, make it 18" long, then after a cuppla passes, trim it off at the internal burn mark, :D ,,
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T-34
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:45 pm

Stayt`ie wrote:with n/a motors all exhaust system calculations are relivant to exhaust cam specs, however im figgering a blowers gunna blow them calcs out the pipe, :lol: ,,
with a meggy, ive found that on the high revvin (11,000rpm) motorcycle motors, a 1.5*taper works
Agreed, forcing the air through completely changes the dynamics, that said probably not going to rev anywhere near 11,000 rpm :shock: :D

The stock cam specs put peak power output at about 4800rpm, it might turn just over 5k after everything is balanced and lightened but it would normally be running out of puff. Not really sure how the blower effects that equation though as all indications on my bus are that it still seems like it still wants to pull at top end of range past where the stock motor is already done. Really need to get back on the dyno and map some of these things out.
Stayt`ie wrote: make it 18" long, then after a cuppla passes, trim it off at the internal burn mark, :D ,,
That sounds like a good bit of advice and makes a lot of sense. Must remember to pack a hacksaw :D
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:29 pm

So had a look around and dug out the results of the initial dyno runs that I did. It's actually very interesting

Here's my baseline readings - the bone stock normally aspirated engine...

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It shows peak power at around 92kph and things dropping off at about 105kph (The bus still has the 1600 gearbox and is running much lower profile tyres than stock)

Here's the results with the supercharger and a less restrictive exhaust running at about 4/5 psi

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As you can see peak power is at about 105kph and things start to drop off at about 119kph.

The bus is now running at about 6/7psi and although I've not been back to the dyno things have improved again...

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Looks impressive but the speedo is actually quite a bit off due to the smaller tyres - I recon it over reads by about 10-15 kph.

So with the new headers, ported heads and some more boost I'm sure that I can get a few more revs out of it. :twisted:
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:30 pm

Meh, image has been cropped - here's a link to the original dyno results - https://www.vdubber.com/photos/photo?al ... otoid=3409
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GeeTee
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by GeeTee » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:04 am

..ya crazy bastard!...

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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:16 pm

Had a bit of a change in direction on the power plant. Rather than base the build on a 'modern' 50 horse 1600cc VW engine I've decided to base the build around the original 36hp 1100cc engine but bored and stroked to 1600 (might as well make this build REALLY challenging :D ).

So for the past month or so I've been carefully planning the build and collecting the necessary parts.

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At the moment I'm waiting for my crank and heads to arrive, once I have these I will set about getting some forged pistons made up. I have some Mahle pistons that were supplied with the 40hp big bore 83.5 barrels but I want to run forged pistons as I'm planning on some higher than normal boost. Unfortunately until the heads get here I don't know what cc they are so cannot calculate the CR. I also want to trial assemble the engine with the Mahle pistons so that I can check out the skirt clearance from the crank.

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The heads I'm using are Wolfsburg West Okrasa copies. These are being put together by Brothers and will feature 35mm x 32mm stainless valves, uprated springs and a nice port job. I'm also having the heads drilled for a second spark plug - this is to assist with potential detonation issues at the higher boost.

The crank is a DPR welded and offset ground unit made from a 36hp core. I would have loved to have used the new AA Chromoly 914 72mm crank but it's just too expensive for this build. Cam is stock 36hp. I have a very nice low k's cam that I will use long with a set of 1.4:1 speedwell ratio rockers, I also indulged in a pair of speedwell rocker covers as well.

I've managed to source most of the parts for the build including most of the EFI system, including the ECU (megasquirt) twin wasted spark coil packs, injectors and manifolds

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Twin ford style coil packs. I need to make a small modification to the megasquirt to be able to run these directly from the ECU - a pretty easy mod to do. I will also upgrade the MAP sensor to a 2 or 3 bar unit. The stock 1 bar unit supplied with the megasquirt will not be big enough.

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Cleaned and matched Bosch injectors - these are 20cc units which should be good for up to 160hp - way higher than I will achieve.

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I also indulged myself and bought a decent boring head so that I can clearance the case for the larger barrels. The 40 horse 'big bore' barrels require the case to be opened up to fit. I also experimented with 50 horse 85.5mm barrels, which can be made to fit but do not leave very much material to hold the head studs.

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The inlet manifolds that I will be using are stock 50 horse items. The stock inlet ports are very similar in size and location to the Okrasa ports - in fact it's pretty easy to see where VW might have got the idea for the twin port. I'm hoping that with the port job on the heads there will be only minimal blending to carry out.

Along with the crank I have also ordered a 36hp flywheel with 200mm clutch and 12 volt ring gear along with a stage 1 Kennedy clutch and apart from the aforementioned pistons the only other item I need to source is a 1 1/2" merged header. I already have a 1 5/8" header but thinking that this is maybe a little too large. Again I will wait for the heads to arrive and find out what size ports they have before ordering another.

Next steps are to get the body reassembled and finshed off whilst I wait for the engine parts to arrive. I've still got to bolt the body to the pan and refit the wings. I also need to sort out the windows and make up some interior panels. Lots to do and only a few months to do it in.
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:21 pm

After last weekends progress and also receiving my 74mm DPR crank in the post this week I was amped to get back out into the man cave and spend a little more spanner time on the oval. The DPR crank is an awesome bit of work. It's a stock 36hp crank that is welded and offset ground to give the extra stroke. It also has counterweights added and is heat treated to stress relieve the crank after the welding process. The end result is a very affordable 74mm crank.


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Along with the new crank I also ordered a 36hp flywheel with a 200mm clutch and a 12volt ring gear. This allows me to use an aftermarket performance clutch and be able to fit it to the 915 gearbox with no issues. I also got DPR to supply me with a stage 1 Kennedy pressure plate and solid clutch disc so that they could balance everything together. I cannot recommend DPR enough, they were a pleasure to deal with.


Feeling inspired I managed to get some more small jobs out of the way this weekend. I made a start on beating the dents in the guards out. Whilst the car is relatively rust free it's obviously had a bit of abuse at some point in its life - maybe as a paddock basher as there are a fair few knocks and dents in the lower nose and lower edges of the fenders. Fortunately the damage is not too severe and I was able to straighten them up pretty good. There's still some cracks to weld up but I will tackle these when i finally fit the guards to ensure I weld them up straight. I trial fitted them to the car, it was good to see it looking like a car once again.


 


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The front tyre clearance is a little worrying. Even with the 2" narrowed beam the tyre scrubs the guard. I'm hoping that I can remedy this with some smaller and lower profile front tyres - the 175s that are on there are obviously too big but even so it looks like it will still be a tight squeeze with 145s on there. I've managed to find a local source for nankang front-runner drag tyres at a very reasonable price. These are a 145/65R15 and are speed rated to 150mph (V rating) which is perfect. They also have 175/80R15 which would make a reasonable rear although I'm still waiting to hear what larger sizes they stock.


As the tyres are an important part of the car I decided to dig out the wheels I bought for it. I purchased a set of mangels a few years back - 2 x 4.5 J / 15s and 4 x 5.5 J / 15s. The idea being that I could run a few different tyre heights on the rear if required. I opted for brand new mangels as all new wheels are now required to have safety beads and safety beads are requirement for DLRA races. I also bought a set of moon discs at the time so decided to get these ready to fit up.


Moon discs cannot be fitted using the traditional method of drilling a hole through the rim and fixing them with self tapping screws, instead they need to be fitted with either 3 dzus fastners or six machine screws around the circumference. Originally I planned to use dzus fastners but decided to change my mind and use 6 machine screws instead. This required drilling some extra mounting holes in the moon discs as they are only supplied with 3 holes. Unfortunately I had run out of gas so could not weld the nuts to the rim to fit them.


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With the wheels as far as I could get them I moved on to the engine. Having already received some engine goodies I decided to start trial fitting the engine together. The first thing I wanted to tackle was the cam and cam gear. I had already had a conversation about using a 50 horse cam gear so knew that this was possible but was also aware that there was some kind of modification required to make this setup work. When I bought the stash of 36hp parts I was lucky enough to get a pretty much perfect stock cam in with the haul. This had been very carefully stored greased up and sealed in plastic bags, the end result being that it's probably better than a NOS one as it has no signs of wear and the added bonus of not being covered in over 50 years worth of shelf snot. The cam gear I opted for was a straight cut version with offset washer to allow me to dial it in properly - assuming that I can get a set of cam specs of course. After offering the cam up to the cam gear it was plain to see that the gear needed clearancing. An easy issue to solve when you have access to a lathe.


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After taking a quick skim off of the inside edge of the cam gear the cam fitted perfectly so I decided to trial fit it into the case.


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I wanted to check clearance for the cam gear bolts and also to make sure that the cam both engaged with the oil pump and did not foul it. Everything fitted perfectly.

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With the cam fitted I decided to close up the case and check it for binding and rotation. 36hp engine are odd in that the cam runs directly in the case without bearings - a novel but concerning way to do things, fortunately the case measures perfect and things were just as they should be.

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I also test fitted the gilmer setup and could not resist another peek at how the supercharger would fit up. I've already drafted up the brackets for the blower but have not yet cut them out.  With the engine at a point where I really need rods / heads / bearings to rock up I decided to move on to other things.


Next up was the rear decklid, unfortunately it had one busted hinge, I managed to fix this up using a hinge of of a doner deck lid I bought a while back. I drifted the hinge pins out and replaced them with R-clips to allow me to remove the decklid easily when tuning. I also could not resist fitting this...

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After a trial fitting of the fuel cell up I turned my attention to the interior. I made up a bracket to hang the tacho from the rear mirror mount and also put together the engine control panel


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The engine control panel is simple stuff - a few switches and a pushbutton that I bought from the local electronics store along with a fuseboard - its all that's needed - a circuit for the fuel pump and one for the ignition, A light for oil pressure and a light for the generator. I'm also going to add in a buzzer for the oil pressure too.


With that done I turned my attention to the seat and did a quick temporary trial fit using tek-screws. I'm pretty happy with the seat position but still need to factor in the head restraints that are required. I will probably end up going with a new Kirkey seat that has these integrated. At one stage I was planing on welding 'ears' into the cage but looking at the seat location this is not going to be as easy as I first thought due to the cage design.


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I also managed to get some other stuff knocked off of the list, I fitted the external battery cut off, trial fitted a 36hp engine so that I could make sure that everything fitted under the decklid (it does :) ) straightened the decklid out, re-fitted the front hood and did a fair bit of pondering - like how to fit lexan windows and whether or not to cut out the rear firewall.


Last night I went down toe BOC and got a new bottle of argon so will get the wheels welded up to mount the moon discs some time this week. If my expenses come through I will also go out and buy the tyres so that I can get the wheels fitted on which means that this coming weekend I should look to get the brakes fitted. Currently the drums are temporarily fitted to allow me to roll the car around I need to re-fit the backing plates and the new shoes and cylinders and hook up the flexi-hoses. I also placed some more orders and should have a harness and some gauge pods arriving soon so that I can finish off the interior electricals. Things are ticking along nicely, lets see if I can get it done in time for my deadline of February.


 
 
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gennyshovel
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by gennyshovel » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:15 am

Is this yours T-34 ? :D

http://youtu.be/hgsjzTOm4EE
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T-34
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:52 pm

No not mine, built by a guy called Johannes Persson, he's a wiz at building small capacity VW engines that make big power. 10,000 rpm from a pushrod engine - pretty sure some voodoo was involved in that build.

Here's some more vid of it pulling 10,000 rpm. Unfortunately they blow a breather hose off half way through the runs which is not surprising given the revs its pulling. (Crank case pressure is always an issue on a VW engine.)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=367056256809474
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by T-34 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:58 pm

Some more goodies arrived in the post today

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Also got an update on the current progress on the heads. The second plug location has been added, larger valve seats installed along with bronze guides and work will soon start on the port job.


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Also think I've managed to figure out how I'm going to fit my lexan windows. Anyone know a source for Lexan here in Adelaide?
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redyammy
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Re: '56 Oval

Post by redyammy » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:30 am

try menzel or city plastics

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