APS/BF- ???

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hawkwind
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by hawkwind » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:40 pm

Well all projects must have a beginning ,so starting from now Hawkwind racing is dead and buried never to rise again (rip)....in its place is project Genesis / a new creation.....before we start a serious question ...what colour is the fastest? as we all know this is the secret to going fast.

First step in a new creation is the frame ...so im going to invest some of ( read most ) of the budget in tools and equipment this year ....first one off the rank is a frame jig...pics below are what I intend to make with some modifications ...looking for comments as to any mods or suggestions from those that already have a jig and produce there own frames.
Attachments
frame_jig_rotisserie_03.jpg
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frame_jig_rotisserie_02.jpg
frame_jig_rotisserie_02.jpg (114.16 KiB) Viewed 4694 times
frame_jig_rotisserie_01.jpg
frame_jig_rotisserie_01.jpg (116.8 KiB) Viewed 4694 times
Vehicle......................A new creation.
Designed by................Troglodyte.
Engineered/ built by......Rustic.
Financed by.................Nickles & Dimes.
Rider......................... Tardus Vetus Inflatio

momec3
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Location: Cedar Grove Qld

Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by momec3 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:39 pm

Red cars go faster,
Always paint mine a different colour, leaves me a little up the sleeve........ :wink:
Chris

hawkwind
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by hawkwind » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:22 pm

The frame material will be CDS tube mild steel ( certified) 38mm X 2.6 mm and the joining method will be oxy /acetylene using nickel bronze fillet welding ..... the frame type is undecided as yet but will be either a full duplex cradle or a trellis or trellis spine hybrid...it will be electroless nickel plated when finished.....front end either upside down late model hydraulic fork or leading link ( but is open as to other designs) undecided as yet on hard tail or suspended it will also be a kneeler or FF which ever produces the lowest frontal area.
Lots of thoughts and ideas from many years will I hope come together ....time will tell.

MMMMmm red hey, very traditional
Vehicle......................A new creation.
Designed by................Troglodyte.
Engineered/ built by......Rustic.
Financed by.................Nickles & Dimes.
Rider......................... Tardus Vetus Inflatio

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gennyshovel
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by gennyshovel » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:53 pm

15? or so years ago, a mate (Wooly) and myself made the frame the Harley engine now resides in, 3mm walled seamless mild steel tubing was used, any joins were plugged with solid , machined to sit snugly into the tubing, vee'd then pinned & welded, the frame is still as good as the day it was made (Wooly is a GREAT welder)
When doing the final welding, weld sections on opposing sides, a section at a time to keep heat distortion to a minimum , while keeping the overall job from getting too hot, take your time & let things cool slowly before welding the next section.
In an ideal world, the whole frame should be heated and cooled slowly to stress relieve it, but we didn't have the resources locally to do this.My favorite rake & trail combo is 37 degrees, with 75 to 100 mm trail (the latter was used on the Team Silverton V8 bike and it went as straight as an arrow)
A leading link front end will give you a lower steering head height & adjustable trail, but will not improve handling on a solo any, if at all.
Nickle plating will undo any strength gains you get with careful welding & stress relieving, purdy is not worth the problems it may create.
Just my 2 bobs worth Gary
Tiny DLRA# 484
Postiebike Racing , created & funded by TwoBob Engineering

hawkwind
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by hawkwind » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:47 pm

Thanks for the info Tiny :D ......how is the nickel plating going to affect the frame ?????? ......electroless nickel is applied via a very low temp process about 90 deg C ...I have done many small parts myself using this process without any ill effects.

cheers
Vehicle......................A new creation.
Designed by................Troglodyte.
Engineered/ built by......Rustic.
Financed by.................Nickles & Dimes.
Rider......................... Tardus Vetus Inflatio

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BONES
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Location: Killara Sydney

Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by BONES » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:49 pm

Hey Hawk
Yep red is fast.
Don't make the rake too steep ( it's a drag bike thing )
My new bike is 30* with zx10 triple clamps to give a little extra trail than the bussa clamps.
Too much rake makes it harder for the forks to slide-- they tend flex more.
Moto GP bikes will go 200 and not throw the rider off and still steer with 24* rake
I had no problem changing lines through the crap salt this year. It did tram track but I think anything would
I think that a rigid rear is ok and much simpler and easier to make the frame. No shock and swingarm pivot will give more room for everything else.

I think the earls fork is a good idea but without a steering stem. Using a rod end for the top pivot and links from the vertical arms back to the chassis which make
an imaginary pivot point for the lower bearing in the steering head. Check the Buddfab site and the streamliner forks.

Maybe a girder type fork with some streamlined tubing. Round forks are real bad.

Nickel bronze looks great -- like one of those old Pommy frames.

Try D S McCulla in Alexandria for tubing-- they have a huge range
Call any time
Bones

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gennyshovel
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by gennyshovel » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:22 pm

hawkwind wrote:Thanks for the info Tiny :D ......how is the nickel plating going to affect the frame ?????? ......electroless nickel is applied via a very low temp process about 90 deg C ...I have done many small parts myself using this process without any ill effects.

cheers
"Although electroless nickel is widely considered an engineering coating it does not compare well to other coatings in terms of certain mechanical properties. Ductility is one of these. Electroless nickel is considered a very strong yet brittle material. The relatively low ductility is due to the various microcrystalline and amorphous structures that limit plastic deformation,[25] i.e. the ability to “stretch” without fracture. It is not uncommon for heavy build deposits (in excess of 25 µm) to crack when exposed to severe loads. This is especially evident in lower phosphorus films or those plated from older baths (in excess of 150 g/l of orthophosphate) with high tensile stress.""

All bike frames flex, some a lot, although well designed, carefully gusseted frame will flex very little, it will still flex a bit, flexing causes fatigue, fatigue causes cracks, cracks tend to upset things a tad :shock: The less flex you have, the longer it will take to become a problem.
Putting a brittle coating on a flexible tube is not a good idea, in my opinion.
I had a mate electroless nickel coat a replica Norton featherbed frame he had an ironhead sportster engine in, it didn't last 12 months before the cracks appeared, I'm sure the engine didn't help the cracks, but it was ok before he applied the nickel.
Tiny DLRA# 484
Postiebike Racing , created & funded by TwoBob Engineering

Stayt`ie
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by Stayt`ie » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:19 pm

more rake equals slower steering,, laydown bike with feet out behind will make body english demish on handleing,, would only take a "puff" of wind to blow you off course,, with rakes over 35* it is advisable to get your feet positioned directly beneath your bodies center of gravity, :wink: ,,

be different and paint it yellow, :lol: ,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

jpbyron
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by jpbyron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:08 pm

Our 100cc has under 60 degrees and 3inches of trail - 95mph stable as the queen Mary. My dad's double triumph had 50 degrees and 6 inches trail good for 200mph. Ran 166mph 1/4 mile.

Who wants to change direction anyway?
Last edited by 1 on jpbyron, edited 0 times in total.
APS-BF 100 109.589mph
Worlds fastest 100cc motorcycle

BIG GAZ
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by BIG GAZ » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:28 pm

Green is nice!
GAZ

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by AuotonomousRX » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:02 am

jpbyron wrote:Our 100cc has under 60 degrees and 3inches of travel - 95mph stable as the queen Mary. My dad's double triumph had 50 degrees and 6 inches travel good for 200mph. Ran 166mph 1/4 mile.

Who wants to change direction anyway?
Just to clear something up here JP you are talking about a Rake of 60 Degrees from a Horizontal line is that right?

That would be 60 Degrees from the Horizontal and 30 Degrees from the Vertical?

Pete :D
Metric Target 250 on a 250 on a Red Bike

Pete :shock:
DLRA #866
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jpbyron
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by jpbyron » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:28 pm

That is correct Pete. I must also correct my reference to travel, I meant trail, brain malfunction.
APS-BF 100 109.589mph
Worlds fastest 100cc motorcycle

rgn

Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by rgn » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:27 pm

I think you will need a jig that is a little sturdier than the one you have posted pictures of, is that a painting frame? I would go with 25 degrees, and active rear suspension. I'm yet to understand why people race with massively raked out forks, or hard tails. Without properly working suspension, your wheels are going to spend less time in contact with the racing surface. There are no corners in LSR. Set your bikes up soft, invest in suspension... a bit of initial squat is not going to hurt you... use zero growth Ntech slicks at the lowest pressure...(contact patch) Green is definitely the fastest colour... :twisted:

Stayt`ie
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by Stayt`ie » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:23 pm

for purposes of the discussion, :wink: ,,

excessive rakes are dinoser thinking from back in the day of "old" telescopeic forks,, in this day and age, excessive rakes are only used on "Fuel Bikes", reason being, the wide slicks thay use are the major "steering" force,, thay employ rake to "slow" their steering in the event thay have to correct where there heading, if todays fuel bikes had 30*+/- rake and had to backoff, the driving forces/momentum would tend to highside them,,

active suspenshions,, imho, suspenshion is relitave to each indivual machine, and as no two are the same, its a hottely discussed subject,, traction, wheelbase, ballast, aero, frontal all add into the mix,, my thinking is that suspenshion may be required on bikes up to 150-180mph, for the 200mob thay seem to be leaning towards "harder" set ups,,, from my experience, in 2006(masshed potato salt) my 12 was the only bike to exceed 200 (apart from Noonans blown Hayabusa),, i have always run a strut and the bike has "always" tracked as if on rails, and once you get it up "on the salt" you can feel it "hook",, ok, Gairdner 13 (good salt), and Bonneville (not to bad salt) i had a hard shokie/spring in there, gopro footage shows the thing squirmeing around,, back to a strut for G14, straight and true and hooked in crappy salt,, my theroy is that with suspenshion thay pogo, that is, bumps/underlations in track compress frount, unload rear, starting a pogo effect, when the rear unloads it looks for somewhere to go, and that somewhere is ahead of the front wheel, trying to correct (be it ever so slow and suttle) only serves to make one chase it,, keep in mind that at 100mph you cover 146+ f/s, at 200, 293 f/s, the reaction forces involved between the two velocities are at/over 100%, you "cannot" make comparisons between the two,,

yup, Green is "the fastest", :lol:
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

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BONES
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Re: APS/BF- ???

Post by BONES » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:43 pm

Ronnie
I'm with you.
My bike this year went 185 . I was stable enough to be able to change my line through the crappy salt on the long track at I guess 150 plus.
When I hit the 3 gutters running across the track it just bumped over them.
I think if you are going FAST( 200 plus) the suspension does not have tome to react and ends up with the pitching Ronnie spoke of.
Both my bikes run straight as. I know the little bike is not going very fast but Alex has little experience on a bike and is very confident in it.

I started with 30kg of ballast and the bike would wheel spin at 150. I added 20 kg (thanks Hawk) and it was wide open in 5th and 6th gears-- I think
no suspension messing up weight transfer

Rigid rear is loads easier to make a frame and more room for everything else.

Ronnie
What's the best one way speed you have done at Bonneville?
I'm on to a guy who might be able to calculate the difference between here and Bonneville

cheers Bones

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