Gas Turbine streamliner

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gidge348
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Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:53 pm

I have been asked to put a build diary on here partly for the interest of others and also to keep me motivated to keep working on the project.

The story so far.... like most people I went to the lake a few years ago “just for a look” and was blown away by the lake and all the weird and wonderful machines that ran out there, so I got a big rush of blood and wanted to have a go.

I had been fascinated by jets and turbine engines and though they may be worth a look. And the more I looked the more it seemed to make sense.
Eventually I settled on a Rolls Royce Nimbus engine from a Westland Wasp anti submarine helicopter that was used by many countries including the UK during the Falklands war.
westland wasp2.gif
westland wasp2.gif (71.76 KiB) Viewed 5244 times
The engine is rated at between 720 and 1050 shaft horsepower but has a few issues for use in a streamliner. The power output is underneath the engine, points forward and governed to a maximum output speed of 2250rpm.
nimbus enginecutaway.gif
nimbus enginecutaway.gif (117.54 KiB) Viewed 5244 times
More on this next time.

Cheers
Ian...
DLRA 715

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RGV
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by RGV » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:47 pm

Depending on rotation direction could you turn a diff around or flip it over so it sat under the Two Stage Axial bit with the yoke facing backwards? You would need some sort of clutch in there?

Dave.

Last Minute Racing "its a 2-stroke ya twit - Its supposed to smoke"
DLRA #928
SATA #10

2010 MPS/G 250 118 MPH:)
2011 Washed Out:(
2012 Washed Out:(
2013 MPS/G 250 131 MPH (RECORD):)
2014 MPS/G 250 140 MPH (RECORD):)
2015 MPS/F 250 DNF:(

gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:16 pm

Hi RGV.

Thanks for the reply, I thought about putting a diff in there, but a couple of problems, firstly the engine is too tall now and I need to narrow it down a bit. Also because the output shaft is only doing 2250 rpm & the wheels would need to be doing ~4000 rpm so there would need to be a big step up speed somewhere along the line so torque loading would be really big. Stock the engine puts out upwards of 1700 lb/ft of torque so upping it would end up at say 3000 lb/ft that the diff/drive line would need to look after :(

One good thing is it does not need a clutch it kind of has one designed in.The engine is what is called a free power turbine works kind of like an air driven torque convertor, just need to start the engine with the brakes on then let go the brakes and give it the beans.

I am actually a fair way down the track with it now so will load more posts to show how I got to where I am now, still keen on hearing any questions/suggestions for things I could do better.

Cheers
Ian...

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gennyshovel
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gennyshovel » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:36 am

Ian, you need to contact Anders,,,,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIT4sAxYJjU
Tiny
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Postiebike Racing , created & funded by TwoBob Engineering

gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:06 pm

Hi Tiny,

Yep have been talking to Andres for the last couple of years on another page, he and the rest of has team have done an amazing job actually building the complete engine from scratch.... that's a bit beyond me, I just bought an engine and started messing around with it.

I have gone through probably 30 different layouts and thought I have it all sorted until I had a few extremely informative conversations with a guy called John Wallis who has also been helping out Anders. The plan ""was"" to drive directly off the Free Power Turbine along a drive shaft into a speedway type quick change diff where a total 8.5:1 reduction would take place to reduce turbine speed of 35,000 rpm to a wheel speed of 4200 rpm. I had seen a similar arrangement on the net where someone used a speedway quick change as the mast gearbox on a small helicopter.
fpt shaft.jpg
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So I merrily ordered about $1000 worth of bearings, machined down the FPT gear to suit the Greek coupler and though that was all fine. After talking to John he suggested I do some calculations for critical shaft speeds and sure enough the drive shaft would have made a beautiful explosion long before the top speed was achieved....... Bugga!!!!

I have since gone back to the standard Nimbus gearbox to see what could be done.
gearbox.jpg
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As you can see the gearbox has a 2 stage reduction, the first reduction has 19 tooth pinion and 85 tooth first stage reduction 4.473:1 ie 35,000rpm to 7800rpm (a reasonably manageable speed), obviously turning the wrong direction but I will get to that.

The free power governor pinion (spur gear number 13 on the drawing) turns aprox 600 degrees to 360 degrees of the first stage reduction gear, then in the governor it is stepped down by a 27:46 tooth sun gear (about 1.7:1). So 600 degrees divided by 1.7 = 352 degrees therefore the governor shaft spins at close enough to 1:1 with the first stage reduction, once again more on that later.

Now I have a pickup point and a 1:1 governor speed the only problem is bottom of the gearbox is way too long and would be under ground in its standard form so I need to remove the redundant section.

Hope I am not boring everyone with all these numbers???

Cheers
Ian...

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RGV
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by RGV » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:55 pm

Hey Ian,not boring at all. Ill be following this build.

Makes me realize how easy us bike guys have got it.

Dave

Last Minute Racing "its a 2-stroke ya twit - Its supposed to smoke"
DLRA #928
SATA #10

2010 MPS/G 250 118 MPH:)
2011 Washed Out:(
2012 Washed Out:(
2013 MPS/G 250 131 MPH (RECORD):)
2014 MPS/G 250 140 MPH (RECORD):)
2015 MPS/F 250 DNF:(

harky
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by harky » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:17 pm

yep ---keep the story coming
where do / did you get a helo engine from ??
Trevor S is using a turbine as well as the in line 6 , does anyone know how he is doing the "drive " given the max rpm difference
I had access a mirage engine some time ago , but WE only drive the wheels -----as it should be !!!
harky
harky
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so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by AuotonomousRX » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:37 am

Yeah Ian great stuff .... 8)

I think the Trevor S Liner is converting to 4WD ....

Pete :D
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gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:31 pm

harky wrote:yep ---keep the story coming
where do / did you get a helo engine from ??
Trevor S is using a turbine as well as the in line 6 , does anyone know how he is doing the "drive " given the max rpm difference
I had access a mirage engine some time ago , but WE only drive the wheels -----as it should be !!!
harky
The engine actually came out of a museum in San Diego in the US. When the Westland Wasp & Scout went out of service there were lots of rebuilt and low time engines around the place that did not have a home as the next generation of helicopters went over to the Rolls Royce Gem engine.

The rolls Royce Gem is being used in the 52 Express https://www.facebook.com/The52Express?ref=tn_tnmn
The Nimbus that I have is just an older larger heavier version of the Gem.

I am not sure of the turbine engine that Trevor is using but given the size of the car and the speed he is chasing I am guessing it will be something like a T55 from a Chinook helicopter??? They have between 4000 & 5000 hp and are used on the unlimited hydroplanes and in the Vesco's Turbinator, but that is just a guess?

If they are using that engine and going for 4wd they will probably be looking at what the Vesco's have done http://www.teamvesco.com/vesco111.html

I am not chasing that speed, my maximum will be 200-300 mph all being well with the gods of salt.

The Mirage engine (the SNECMA Atar) ""could"" be made to be to drive the wheels the same way jets are converted to run industrial generators and pumps, but you would really have a beast to try and deal with.

It would be a 1.5 ton engine putting out over 10,000 hp and burning something like 400 litres of fuel in a run.... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Cheers
Ian...

harky
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by harky » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:10 pm

yep --again
many years ago ---over 25 , the mirage engine was bought @ auction for " peanuts " the buyer wrote to RR for info on how to start it etc the next thing he had the FEDRAL police knocking on his door !!!!! the story goes that the engine was sold to the commonwealth -----never to be resold , he had a receipt from the commonwealth tender / auction , so was the owner !!! He then tried to start it ( bolted to the floor of his shed ) it made flames -----and set the trees alight over the road from his place , in the attempt to start it it used all the 200 L / 44gal of fuel he had it plumbed to , and that was the end of that ------ I think it now sits @ the National Motor Museum ( Birdwood SA )
anyway 10,000 hp is about 9,500 too much for this old bloke -------200 might be too much yet!!!
keep telling the story ----we are all interested !!
harky
harky
DLRA #643
so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:22 pm

Yep, I know there was some kind of big political stuff up with Mirage.

When the RAAF had finished with them the Government sold them to Pakistan and now Pakistan uses them as their front line launching platform for their nuclear cruise missiles..... A few red faces in Canberra.... :? :? :?

Okay, back to the saga....
Making the gearbox a bit smaller-shorter
Capture.JPG
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The two bolt up faces are flat & parallel so I was intending use a piece of 12mm mild steel plate as a jig and bolt the front to one side using all the mounting points and the opposite side of the same jig for the rear so theoretically they should line up & be straight. Note the I am not changing the relationship between the pinion and first stage reduction, all I am really doing is moving the sump.

Most of the oiling systems on turbines are just like a dry sump system on a race car, pressure system, scavenge system oil tank & cooler etc.

A the moment the first stage reduction also operates the piston for the torque sensor, unfortunately this will need to go, but I will use all the standard mounting points and bearings. Currently the first stage reduction is held radially by 2 roller bearing and deep groove ball bearing in the piston of the torque sensor to handle axial loads.
drawing.JPG
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The only parts that need to be manufactured are numbers 13,15 & 18 on the drawing, everything else is as it came from the factory other than cutting splines in inside of the gear (see second gear assembly). There is a shaft in there at the moment but it only held by a slot at the end of the shaft and only 12mm dia.

The designed shaft at the spline is 32mm dia at the root & 35.5mm dia at the tip, it is also positioned directly under the tertiary stage gear that would normally take all the torque to the rest of the gearbox. I have done a quick FEA analysis of the shaft theoretically????? it looks strong enough. More on that later.....

Lastly the diff, I have checked and can get a 3.89 reverse direction ring and pinion and housing for the 8 3/8 winters quick change. Because the drive shaft and governor will spin at the same speed I will mount it on the rear diff cover

The problem is that depending on the tyres the wheels will need to spin at between 4200rpm and 4600 rpm. I can change ratios to get a final drive of 1.8: 1 all the way to 7.95:1 so plenty to choose from but if I need the wheels to be doing say 4200 rpm the pinion will be doing 3.89 times as fast ie over 16,000 rpm........AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH back to silly speeds.

Any way more later in this saga

Cheers
Ian...

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Greg Watters
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by Greg Watters » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:41 am

Good stuff Ian :)

gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:56 pm

Ok where I left off, and the pinion spinning at 16,000 rpm well John came to the rescue again and after measuring the pinion bearings:
bearing.JPG
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He cross referenced the dimensions and came up with rated speed of 11,000 rpm.... well that's close enough for me may need some improved oiling for heat rejection, but that can be worked on later.

Then I remembered a conversation I had with Winters in regards to their "Extremeliner" diff and he said that they have had no problems running 350mph ++ regularly with no oil coolers, pumps or anything and 2500hp+ nitro motors. They have a similar setup to the 8 3/8 (much bigger of course) and they use either 2.0 or 3.08 ring & pinion and similar tyres so..... 350 mph means tyres doing 4900 to 5400 so their pinion speeds are a minimum of 10,000 rpm up to over 17,000 rpm........ any way still looking good.
Next thing is to start ripping the gearbox apart to do some accurate measuring.
1. Hang the gearbox from a rope so I can get to all sides.
1.JPG
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I have taken off the pressure sensor mounts and all the bolts on the cover.

2. The steel item with the "C" shaped grove is the actual piston for the torque sensor that has a range of 15mm from full in to full out and is on a bearing in the centre and brass piston rings on the outside. it is all getting tossed anyway
2.JPG
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This makes it difficult to grab hold of.
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gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:03 pm

3. This is a bit brutal but did not leave too much of a mark
3.JPG
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4. Then to extract the bearing I needed to make a puller.
4.JPG
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5. Then cut some lock wire and remove 8 bolts
5.JPG
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gidge348
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Re: Gas Turbine streamliner

Post by gidge348 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:06 pm

6. Hey presto drive shaft
6.JPG
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7. The "drive shaft is held in by a cross key on the opposite end on the shaft, lock plate & nut.
7.JPG
7.JPG (54.97 KiB) Viewed 5032 times
The shaft itself is way too puny to hold any real torque and a single key at the rear wont do it either but more on that later. Any way sorry about the crappy pics and more on the saga later.


Ian...

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