theTRUTH

See cars and bikes being built for the salt

Moderator: DLRA

russelllowe
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by russelllowe » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:19 am

Hi Greg, another idea would be a tapered roller bearing that sits in a housing that pushes back on the pillow block. I'll make a drawing.

User avatar
Greg Watters
Posts: 749
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by Greg Watters » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:57 am

We have a lot of bearings like that in agriculture, the allenhead grub screw doesnt last long with side load,ditto the lock ring , and long term the bearing blocks loosen around the bearing,
tapered would work if you can get enough strength in the mounts, you probably want parallel bearings in at least double row or 2 bearings at the motor to shaft sprocket , thats going to be greatest load and will have to deal with chain whip etc , a tapered there may try and drive apart under load if not secure enough, if the shafts were longer and threaded on each end it would be easier
I may have missed it earlier , are you changing the gearing at this point ?
I have a jackshaft sort of thing planned for a MC streamliner but its also going to be my range change with a 2 speed planetary box at that point

harky
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:03 am
Location: Adelaide

Re: theTRUTH

Post by harky » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:33 pm

Ok , my turn
drill and tap each end of the shaft 8 or 10 mm ,bolt and thick "washer " on each end , wont effect shaft strength,
then have tube spacers between all components, everything is kept and contained in position
there
that's my $o.o1 worth
harky
harky
DLRA #643
so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

harky
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:03 am
Location: Adelaide

Re: theTRUTH

Post by harky » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:43 pm

ps
nice clutch
harky
DLRA #643
so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

harky
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:03 am
Location: Adelaide

Re: theTRUTH

Post by harky » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:54 pm

pps
means the clutch thrust can " push" against the tube system as well
ok that enough
harky
harky
DLRA #643
so far 120mph for$2000---imagine how fast I can go for $20,000

User avatar
walkingpace
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Central Coast NSW

Re: theTRUTH

Post by walkingpace » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:58 pm

I'm using a near identical design for mine (currently getting the pieces made up) but I've incorporated a lip just before the spline to stop the flywheel/sprocket carrier moving one way and a tube spacer butted up against the inner sleeve of the end bearing to stop it going the other way and to resist clutch thrust. The bearing is retained inside the flywheel/sprocket carrier with a circlip and the inner sleeve of the bearing makes positive contact with both the lip on the shaft and the tube spacer so it isn't going anywhere.

To stop the whole unit moving left or right the shaft is only turned down to 27mm where it seats inside the bearings. It immediately steps up between the bearings creating a lip at each end preventing it from moving in either direction once the bearings are bolted down.

The final drive sprocket hangs off one end (outside the bearings) and is again retained by an inner lip where the shaft is turned down to 25mm, and a lock nut retains the sprocket on the outside.

Once I get all the parts together I'll post some pics

russelllowe
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by russelllowe » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:01 am

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions. very helpful.

I visited Hooper bearings yesterday and had a good chat with the guy there. Without some thread and a nut to preload the tapered bearing it would be pretty awkward to set one up properly ... not to mention they aren't sealed so the salt would wreak havoc (pretty much what you were saying Greg). His suggestion was an angular contact bearing, like this:

Image

The only one that will fit in my 25mm x 47mm hub adaptor is exactly the same size as the two I already have. So, it's 12mm wide too.

So I figure I have two options:

1. Use one bearing which leaves plenty of room to machine two slots in the hub adaptor to fit a cir-clip on both sides. The downside is a single bearing will only take load in one direction (it's really only coming from one direction, but there might be some wandering to the right) and, of more concern, is that because the bearings are a "neat" fit rather than pressed into the hub adaptor there might be some rocking. Locktight will help, but that's not ideal. I think a single bearing has plenty of capability to resist the side load; 7,500 newtons ... so about 750kg in that direction.

2. Use two bearings in a mirror formation and make two retainer plates that bolt on at either ends and sandwich the whole lot together. Two bearings will resist rocking better (24mm of width rather than 12mm) and the hub adaptor isn't weakened by the cir-clip slots (having said that, the bearing guy says they could be very shallow).

Up to now I was going with option 1, but I think I've just talked myself into option 2.

Keep in mind these bearings are only active when I'm at idle on the start line ... as soon as the clutch is fully engaged they don't spin at all.

To keep them in place?

The spline side one is a press fit (unfortunately the engineer misunderstood the drawing and thought there would be a single bearing at each end of the spline rather than two at the clutch end only so the press fit is only 12mm wide) which should make a decent contribution. I thought I'd leave it at that and see how it went ... if it showed signs of shifting I could supplement it with either a sleeve with more grub screws, or, keeping Gregs comments in mind, a press fit sleeve. Or do what Harky suggests and cap the end.

I'll make another drawing.

Cheers

User avatar
BONES
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:28 pm
Location: Killara Sydney

Re: theTRUTH

Post by BONES » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:30 am

Hi Russell
Been keeping a bit of an eye on what's going on.
I think Chris mentioned grub screws and shafts before--- DO NOT use grub screws or anything that will mark the shaft to retain the bearings.
This will cause a huge stress riser. The same goes for where the spline meets the bearing diameter. A radius or a chamfer here.
Harky's idea of drilling the ends of the shaft and using crush tubes is good. Then the bearing can be retained in the housing.

Is there room for a thread on the end of the shaft?
What material is the shaft? If it is not been hardened you can drill and tap it or screw cut it.

Cheers Bones
Remember Russell--- use the force ( Hayabusa) :-)

russelllowe
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by russelllowe » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:26 pm

Hi Bones! Welcome back (to Australia?) ... I heard you went 186 for a record at BMST, how did you go at World of Speed? Or was it the Shootout?

I forget what the Engineer said the shaft was made of exactly ... I think he said CR20 or CN20, but he did say it was super tough. It's been hardened and nitrided on the surface, so I think cutting a thread around the end's would be difficult. Drilling and tapping a thread into the end of the shaft seems more reasonable though ... at least to try. Regarding marking the surface; grabbing it in a 3 Jaw chuck would be fine though right?

What about pressing on a sleeve to hold everything in place? I would have thought the sleeve could even be made of aluminium (6061 or similar) as it's only resisting forces from the clutch actuation (in concert with the pressed on angular contact bearing) and some wandering of the sprockets if the jackshaft isn't perfectly parallel with the crankshaft. Aluminium would be less likely to mark the shaft too, and easier to get off by heating later on.

Cheers!

(P.S. I'll let you know if I need a starter motor ... for reference, I saw this motor at Mike Ellis Motors on Friday https://youtu.be/Q9TuWLvau8E, it'll be in a street driven ute)

User avatar
BONES
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:28 pm
Location: Killara Sydney

Re: theTRUTH

Post by BONES » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:18 am

Hi Russell
I don't think you need to need to press the spacers on to the shaft. Just make them a nice slide fit with some anti sieze.
The bolts on each end are holding it together and the bearings are locked into the housings.
The assembly will be like a motorcycle wheel.

If you need a wider bearing but two 12mm wide bearings are too wide, can you go to a different series bearing ,ie 6205 to 6006.
The lighter series can have the same OD to fit the housing, a bigger ID and 2x the lighter bearing is less than 2x the heavier bearing.
The spacers on the shaft can have a shoulder to support the lighter bearing.
Check the bearing book for the load capacities.

I'm still in the US-- until January.
I ran at BMST and WoS. Set records at both meeting at 198. I had one way runs of 204 and 201 but couldn't back them up for a
record over 200--- next year. Maybe some bodywork.

cheers Bones

russelllowe
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by russelllowe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:45 am

Hey Bones,

Yeah, my idea was to press a sleeve on at the end of the shaft if I wasn't able to drill and tap the end of the shaft for a bolt ... I'll be doing a test pilot hole this evening to see how hard the shaft is at the ends/center; I'll report back.

Two 12mm wide bearing fit spot on because I designed it for two in the first place. My issue was that I had assumed limited side loading and that the bearings would be pressed into the hub adapter AND onto the shaft, locking everything in nicely. Greg correctly pointed out that disengaging the clutch would introduce quite a side load (that, ironically, I had planned for at the other end ... must have missed that "equal and opposite reaction" class at high school!). So everything since then has been trying to deal with side load from disengaging the clutch without (ideally) having to remake things.

I think I have a good solution for locking in the bearings to the hub adapter (and clutch) now, so if I can drill and tap the ends for the 'Harky-Solution" then I'll be set. If the shaft turns out to be too hard, then I recon a pressed on sleeve or some kind of collet system would be my best bet to avoid any localized stress risers.

January?!? Retired? Wohoo! Good on you.

198 is brilliant (204 is epic at that height!) but I know how you feel as I'm still after my first hat. Will you race at Gairdner in 2018?

Cheers

User avatar
BONES
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:28 pm
Location: Killara Sydney

Re: theTRUTH

Post by BONES » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:33 am

Hey Russell

Yes I will race at Gairdner. My mate Rod who comes with me wants another go at 200--- he's gone 185.
The shaft should be drillable. Go slowly with plenty of cutting oil.
Now that I am retired I can hang around for whatever happens with the streamliners.
I'm thinking of doing some serious bodywork. Like Tom Mellor or Alp's Triumph.
I would like some one to show me how to form the aluminium. There may be a guy in town who can.
I just need to talk him into it :-)

Is your shed long enough for this bike :D

Keep at it mate--- only 5 months to go

cheers Bones

russelllowe
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by russelllowe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:04 pm

Hey Bones,

Cool. Yeah, that 200 is such a compelling target.

Tanks, I'll start with a 4mm bit I think, I want to do a quick test in my drill stand at home and then I'll bring it into work to use the lathe after it shows it'll cut. Will use plenty of oil.

I can send you a few online videos I've learned from re metal shaping if you like? I've watched hundreds of hours but I recon there are one or two that really stood out (Ron Covell and Wray Schelin ... next time you are in upstate NYC you should consider one of his 4 day classes, they look golden). Alp's Triumph is beautiful, I like his approach too (did he use an air shifter for the gears?) ... although I wasn't convinced by the asymmetrical view out the front (having experienced a bike that doesn't go straight I wouldn't push my luck there).

Yeah, she's gonna be a limo that's for sure.

I know! 5 months is not long at all.

Cheers!

momec3
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:36 pm
Location: Cedar Grove Qld

Re: theTRUTH

Post by momec3 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:43 pm

Be careful of compromise. Sometimes better to tear up a design that doesn't work out, call it proto 1 and look at the big picture and your investment in that. Some of my best decisions in motorsport were put in the bin. Saying that the "Harky solution" sounds good.


Chris
Chris

User avatar
Greg Watters
Posts: 749
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 pm

Re: theTRUTH

Post by Greg Watters » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:22 pm

And you can soften and reharden some grades of steel , talk to the guy that made it for you

Post Reply