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Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:00 pm
have a look at Al Lamb's and Ralph Hudsons "current" bikes, particulary the frountal area ahead of the windscreen, thay both seem to be going away from the rounded shape, and towards the "upsidedown boat" sortta shape,,
When I was with the Black Art team at Bonneville this year, Greg and I had a conversation on attempting to narrow this area,,
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:00 am
Yes, they were the inspiration to take a more upright seating position ... 300mph in Bolivia sitting up says a lot.
Ralph Hudson's bike seems to have changed in front of the windscreen since Bolivia ... as seen in this picture by Jean Turner (at BMST 2019):
The round air intake seems to have grown pointy shrouds/a scoop around it, is that right?
Changes are not so obvious on Al Lambs bike ... photo also by Jean Turner (at BMST 2019):
By "upsidedown boat" shape do you mean there is a definite ridge line at the centre? Like this ...
I bet neither of them can see forward very well when in the full tuck position, did that come up in conversation at all?
The other bike to note is the Hass-Serafini Hayabusa. This article describes their wind tunnel test session where they made one change and it made such a major improvement that they went back and recalibrated the base setup because they thought something may have gone wrong ... it hadn't: https://www.dragbike.com/tln-motorsport ... nd-tunnel/
. I thought the improvement was to do with fairing in the riders shoulders, but in light of the upside down boat idea the extra panels above the hand blisters would make the ridge more defined. The first image is without the extra surfaces ...
And with the extra surfaces ...
In a kind of stroke of luck, because I over developed a couple of spots on the Blackbird copy upper I'm doing it's acutally turned out narrower. The double bubble screen accentuates that too ... looks like I may as well keep going down that path.
Final thought, Cow Catchers on old trains have a similar shape to the upside down boat above.
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:27 pm
yes that's what I was eluding to with the upsidedown boat bow, but maybe not so pronounced (sharp),, train cowcatchers are designed to scoop the beast off the track, or in our case, scoop the air around the machine,,
with any situp bike its difficult to see forward from the full tuck position lol,,
The photo you have of Ralph is current however Als is from another event, he has made changes after spending a lot of time at the wind tunnel,, Al was telling me that his bike is setup to run in "perfect" conditions, the aero is so finally tuned any small breeze it becomes a handful,,
I have photos of both bikes from the BMST event this year, but im getting notices that the files are too large to attach (this whiteman magic dose my head in, lol),,
it just occurred to me that Jack Costellos machines also employ the upsidedown boat idea,,
(we need a better word description than "upsidedown boat" lol)
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:57 pm
I would have thought bikes at those speeds would demand perfect wind most times. Got me beat how you guys can hop on when there are side winds.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:54 am
You are excelling yourself with the aluminium forming.
I have a job for you if you like and a ride
I'm back in Oz, Ill call soon
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:35 pm
I just noticed the image I posted of the Hass-Serafini bike in the wind tunnel is actually a different bike ... interesting though, it's from the same wind tunnel article and they've employed the same additiojns to the fairing (making both more upside down boat shaped).
In metal shaping something similar is called a reverse curve, imagine the shape below running front to back rather than side to side as it's shown):
You can email me the images if you like and I'll post them up here: email@example.com
Yes, I've seen the Nebulous Theorem bike/cars before but didnt know his name, lots of very interesting stuff to see here: http://www.jackcostella.com/
And one of the bike's (not using reverse curves, but very much like an upside down canoe):
And video here: https://youtu.be/YLrK8zUIHv8
Yeah, for 2020 I'm just making a front fairing (and the wing) so it's not affected by cross winds so much ... my thinking is that I'm making the worlds shortest Kammtail.
Thanks, call anytime.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm
I have read on another Web site that the costella cars dont go through the Air they go " under " it .
Also i had noticed whilst standing alongside these tiny things that he still uses " air tabs " / vortex generators at the back
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:40 pm
These pics are from Bonneville 2019 from Stayt'ie, the first is Al Lamb's Honda showing some modifications since running at Bolivia:
In the second you can see Ralph Hudson's Suzuki behind the nice W1 Kawazaki in the forground. His bike is clearly missing the prominent air intake that he ran in Bolivia; it's interesting that the fairing seems shaped to send some air inbetween the nose and the upper surface of the mudguard ...
Thanks for sharing Ronnie.
This last one is a pic I took at BUB 2014 ... It's a ZXR1400 I think, blown as well. It popped to mind after seeing how the Al Lamb bike has that Roman Nose thing going on:
Can't remember how fast it went, but that year was really slippery so powerful bikes weren't even cracking 175mph, wheel spinning the whole way. Stop the press! Just found this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5e-i4afrgo
, he went over 200mph in 2013 which was the total opposite of 2014, it was hard and fast!
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:22 pm
Thankyou for posting them up Russell,,
Unfortunatly I didn't spend any real time around Ralphs bike, as I was more interested at the time in Hiro Kiso and the other Japanese team who were running bodywork similar to Hiro's (both Harley Davidson powered),, (Rus, I will email photos for you to post)
As thay were pitted adjacent to us, I spent more time noseing around in Als pit,, his bike appears more like a fat knife as apposed to the farmilar teardrop shape, similar to Denis's 7,,
Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:58 am
Good as gold Stayt'ie,
The photo's below are from Bonneville 2019, taken by Stayt'ie; comentary is mine ...
The first two are Hiro Kiso and the other Japanese teams bikes ... interestingly they look just as wide, if not wider than the two across the frame four cylinder bikes of Lamb and Hudson ... their fully exposed front wheel/fender is similar to the Hudson bike in contrast to the Lamb bike that has the main fairing coming a bit more forward (as seen by the cutouts it needs so the wheel is free to steer side to side, seen in a previous post). The Japanese bikes definitely seem rounder and less flat knife blade like:
and Al Lamb's Honda from behind:
From this view it's no wonder Al Lamb says it can be a handfull in cross winds.
Thanks again for sharing Ronnie.
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:40 pm
Just taking a short break from fairing design and metal shaping to work on a better system for actuating the clutch; the idea is to do away with the left foot operated clutch so i can put two feet on the ground when starting off and coming to a stop.
Harky suggested an electrical linear actuator (he's using them for the outriggers on his feet forward bike) but I remembered I'd bought a cheap electrical sissor-jack from eBay last year and thought I'd give that a go ... it's just wedged in there at the moment, but it works well I think:
I'll set up a handlebar mounted toggle switch and the two cutouts at the front and back of the pivot arm there so it won't go too far in either direction.
Nothing has changed (re the master cylinder and mounting) from the manual foot pedal operated version so if this doesn't work on the salt I can throw the pedal back on and keep going.
I'll post a video soon.
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 pm
maybe a touch button both ways , you can regulate that easier , ie leave it at a slip point longer , i have a toggle on the linear actuators on my trailer roof ,and it is too easy to bump it from up to down even with the N point in between .m
My trainer wheels( on the FF bike ) are at the Mk 4 stage it’s really painful
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:17 pm
Yeah, a momentary rocker type switch is what I was thinking; definitely need to control/hold the slip
... but it is very tolerant.
Give us an update on the trainers! MKIV? I, for one, will need to know when I cut the front end off for a feet forward 2021 attack.
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:28 am
A video of it in action, and a image of the mounting finished (it's bolt on so I can get rid of it easy if it doesn't work as expected):
and the pic:
You can see the limit switches in the green rings at the bottom ... they need to get adjustable mounts around the pivot arm and the handle bar switches need sorting ... and probably also a heat shield needs making to protect it from the header pipe which isn't that far away from the back side (the back cover of the sissor jack motor is is plastic, as is one of the gears inside it). Should also try and salt proof a few openings where the wires come out of the motor part, cos it will get in otherwise ... I mounted it upside down in the end, to give a better line to the pivot point, but it does place the motor nearer any salt that kicks up from the front wheel which is not ideal.
As an indication of how much force is involved, the 6mm steel plate that the clutch slave cylinder sits on and pushes back against flexes a little bit when pushing against the clutch spring ... so I'll stiffen that up a bit too. It should make the actuation more direct and predictable ... #should. Thats next.
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:03 pm
Hey Russ, your a natural. Looks very professional.