Fire system nozzle positions

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GeeTee
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Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:17 pm

I have bought a Coldfire bomb for my car, an air-cooled flat four VW Beetle.
There are three nozzles. To comply with wording of the rules "driver and engine" rules I will need to install one of these in the cabin.

Should I install it high or low? Aim it at the driving position? Or should I install it so it forms some sort of liquid safety curtain between the driver and the engine bay?

For the engine, I think there is wording that says nozzles shoud be aimed at the "headers". However, VW headers are outside the engine bay. Should I install the nozzles higher in the engine bay, one each side (at carburettor height)?

experience, advice and hints appreciated

Rob
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by Rob » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:00 pm

G'day GeeTee,

Per the rulebook, section 3.Q you need to get in touch with the Fire Extinguisher System Specialist for difinitive answers.

Currently that's Gary Baker and his contact details are in the Rulebook, Section 9 (or page 64).

To the best of my own understanding, driver compartment and engine fire systems are seperate entities enabling one or both to be operated as required. This may well have changed but Gary is the right man to ask.

Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.

penny
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by penny » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:14 pm

Also ask the question ,do you need a nozzle on your front mounted fuel tank . cheers paul
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GeeTee
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:10 pm

Hi, 2012 rules simply and clearly state "...10lb minimum. Driver and engine, 0-200MPH" with regard to fire protection

This what I have installed. I'm under 150MPH.

Number of nozzles and suggested/required locations not specified until 150MPH: "... include two nozzles (aimed at) header/oil pan area."

No mention of - therefore no requirement for - fuel tank, but it's a good idea!

Rob
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by Rob » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:35 pm

Yes but it's unclear (to me at least) if it means 10lb (4.5kg) each or 10lb for the lot.

The last line in the rule says "Questions concerning fire-extinguishing systems may be directed to the Fire Extinguishing System Specialist, see Section 9."

If you get a definite answer from Gary, your good to go, opinions from here don't mean any of us is necessarily correct other than perhaps the car scrutineer(s), hence the previous post.

Cheers,
Rob
I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.

GeeTee
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:56 pm

It says: "10 lbs min. Driver and engine, 0-200MPH"

It does not say: "10lb driver system and 10lb engine system" or words to that effect that imply a total of 20lb on board each car, and/or mandatory inclusion of two separate systems (although this is accepted - see below). Even the 201+MPH cars do not require 20lb - they rules state they require "11lb min" including "over 5lb for driver".

This "10 lbs min. Driver and engine" information for 0-200MPH cars is provided in section 3.Q after the pre-2012 rules (that remain included - I imagine for technical clarification/guidance) that specify "5lb" in "driver's compartment" of "all cars", and "additional 5lb" that "may be in conjunction with the driver system, or a separate system" for cars "Over 150MPH".

It is clear to me that the previous 10lb requirement for fire system(s) in driver and engine area in Over-150MPH cars have been adopted for ALL cars (even the slow ones!) which is good for safety. This rule states the protection can be provided by one system ("10lbs min - driver and engine" [new rules for 2012]) or two ("the additional 5lb can be... a separate system").

By allowing a "separate system" the rules allow an easy upgrade of an older sub-150MPH car by installing a separate system for the engine area, while allowing racers to retain the investment in the safety hardware previously mandated for the driver compartment. It allows new cars the choice of one or two separate systems to protect driver and engine areas, with a total of 10lb (min) on board.

Cars over 150MPH (not me!) have additional specs for engine nozzle location, as before.

Cars over 200mph (not me!) are required to have "11lb min. Over 5lbs for driver".
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JonB
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by JonB » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:02 pm

I got clarification when I was buying my Colfire system GeeTee.
As you said above, I'm building for 200mph plus so ended up with 2 X 10pm bottles.
Price difference between 1x10lb + 1X5lb versus 2x10lb wasn't worth chasing for a safety item.
I'm setting mine all to go of on 1 push button, if I'm on fire I want dome everywhere.

Advice I got from my supplier on drivers compartment nozzle placement was;
"Point them at your harness buckle from in front and above position"

jon
DLRA#1115
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GeeTee
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Hmmm... I was advised to place the cabin nozzle between myself and the likely fire source (rear of car in a rear engined VW) to act as a 'curtain' of protection. So with commonsense - and a lack of any other information from any source - that's what I did.

No matter what, with 1000psi letting go there will be goo everywhere...!

EDIT: I'm only a hotted up street/rally car. Maybe 130MPH/200+ km/h

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Dr Goggles
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by Dr Goggles » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:29 pm

JonB wrote:I got clarification when I was buying my Colfire system GeeTee.
As you said above, I'm building for 200mph plus so ended up with 2 X 10pm bottles.
Price difference between 1x10lb + 1X5lb versus 2x10lb wasn't worth chasing for a safety item.
I'm setting mine all to go of on 1 push button, if I'm on fire I want dome everywhere.

Advice I got from my supplier on drivers compartment nozzle placement was;
"Point them at your harness buckle from in front and above position"

jon
Our fuel tank is at the back and there is very little apart from the padding in our cab that is even absorbtive, let alone flamable so I have always been reticent to have a one shot system in our car because getting soapy foam everywhere in the cab is going to make the necessary movements to get out in a hurry more difficult. The advice to aim it at your buckle makes sense in a front engined/rear fuel tank car or anything that has fuel supply forweard of the driver. Now, animal will pipe up here and say, what if you're going backwards or spinning and on fire with fuel going everywhere?....good point but I stand by my reasoning for having a second separate system for the cab. The first hits the entire engine bay and fuel tank area, if the fire ain't out after that then the drivers system can be fired , especially if the car is upside down or for some other reason the driver is trapped.

Additional questions that fall outside the current brief

What if the driver is unconscious? .......

How the F would we know if our car is on fire except for via the Hadfield system*


* The Hadfield system is when you see, out of the corner of your eye, that the lights on the fire truck are flashing and they are heading your way.....
...few understand what I'm trying to do , but they vastly outnumber those who understand why..

David Leikvold
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by David Leikvold » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:35 pm

More tangential digression relating mostly to special construction vehicles: If you had two separate Cold Fire systems with infrared (or similar) fire detectors in the engine bay and in the cockpit it would still look after you if you were unconscious, but wouldn't go off until it was needed. If you were still conscious and had designed and built your firewall/s properly and the engine bay was still ablaze you might be better off if, once the car was stopped and you were out (having remembered to kill the battery), you could switch the cockpit fire system to helping put out the engine bay fire.

Of course, there's nothing to stop you having multiple firewalls in a rear engined lakester or streamliner; the obligatory main driver/engine bay one, then another surrounding the fuel tank mounted right at the back of the car and then others that would contain a fuel leak or pressurised spray around the inlet manifold and keep it away from anything hot and finally one that stopped any liquids dropping onto the ceramic coated, insulation wrapped exhaust pipes. Design the fuel and oil lines out of harm's way and don't use zip ties to retain anything in the engine bay. Finally, keep the shielded pipes more than a con rod's throw from the block and you'd have real trouble starting any fire!

If you are going to aim a 1,000psi fire nozzle at yourself don't let it hit you in the face, especially if you have your helmet visor slightly ajar for ventilation or if you think it might come open in a violent roll.

Cheers
Dave :D
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GeeTee
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:29 pm

I got all that.. up until you said tangential... um... regression :D

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BOB ELLIS
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by BOB ELLIS » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:43 pm

GeeTee,Email sent to you , Don't worry about David , he likes to use big complicated words (I only did book learning till grade 4(that took 6 years!)),David you coming down this year?? I been a bit outa touch,send me PM with whats happening,Cheers Bob.

David Leikvold
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by David Leikvold » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:03 am

G'day Bob,
I knew you'd love "tangential digression" :D , sometimes I just can't stop myself being needlessly tautologous (pun intended)! I can't get my PMs to work, I must be getting too old. Much as I'd like to, I won't be there this year, I can't really spare the time or the money right now. That's a real shame, lots of good things have happened since my first visit in 2009. I'd love to be there, if only to help out and meet some of my forum friends. And see the Shaguar up close! When are you leaving Brisbane and coming back?

Cheers
Dave :D

P.S. Is anyone interested in another QTA BBQ before Speedweek?
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T-34
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by T-34 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:42 am

Glen, what was the official outcome for the fire system. I'm just about to look at the fire system for the oval.

Mick.
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GeeTee
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Re: Fire system nozzle positions

Post by GeeTee » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:17 am

Hi... I have one nozzle either side, mid-way up the rear firewall in the engine bay (2 total) aimed at carbs, one in-cabin nozzle under steering column aimed at my nuts. All lines are within car (installed on cage) with only the nozzles showing into engine bay. Bottle across car in back seat area. This was how I was told to install/lay-out my system (with a max of three nozzles as spec'ed by ColdFire) after a 'dummy scrute' session in Sydney in 2013. HTH

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