Salt Question

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flyingwombat
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Salt Question

Post by flyingwombat »

After reading about the layer of mud under the salt this year,
does anyone have an opinion about what the salt conditions
will be like next year (assuming no more flooding)
This is in relationship as to build suspension into a
small streamliner or not.
I am at that point where I need to make a decision.
I was not going to run any but the mud thing has got
me thinking

Thanks guys
hawkwind racing
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clueless

Post by hawkwind racing »

absolutly no idea ? It will be interesting to see what we get , hoping like hell its good :) if its any help Im running a solid rear ,and minimum suspension travel up front , (motorcycle ) regardless
gary
Dr Goggles
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malt mixed with sud

Post by Dr Goggles »

I didn't get as far as the lake this year .Many thanks to Rod for the story in the newsletter and condolences to all , once again , to those who made it all the way there only to have it cancelled right under their noses . I can understand why "greenies" would have kicked up a stink about the spit that that was built because it would have looked pretty savage initially but Rod is dead right that if it had been given a chance to settle that it would have vastly reduced the impact that the event has on the edge of the lake each year. It is a reminder to all that the event hangs by a thread and we can be upset by anyone who appeals against us on the "National Parks are sacrosanct" line ...we all need to be critically careful .Many thanks as well to the Newtons , and commiserations for the loss .

Is it true that the full-moon made it all worse by creating a "king-tide" in the water table which was the last straw for the soft surface???? I'm guessing that the longer the lake stays wet during the winter and spring this year the better as it will increase the chance of the mud "migrating"down through the salt ....and us having a good surface to race on next year 8)

My suggestion Wombat is to spend as much time as you can on Landracing.com researching suspension travel as there have been plenty of discussions about it there .

For what it's worth here's my five cents worth.

Our bellytank has no suspension , we came to this decision for several reasons.
1./How would we determine a suitable spring vs damping rate when the tyre pressures are almost rock hard and the ride height minimal.

2./ the risk of lift caused by a sudden compression and then rebound on the front end is real and dangerous .

3./ Other cars we looked at had suspension changes over the years that tended to zero travel , the added complexity of suspension that in the end wouldn't be used wasn't in our budget.

4./ the advantages of clean shape and simple construction were the final decider .
A final principal that I sometimes fell back on was a little addage that " no science is better than bad science" ...or in other words if you think it might work but have no proof , forget it as it will just confuse the issue.....K.I.S.S is the best philosophy.

hope that was some help. get building brother :!:
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BOB ELLIS
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Post by BOB ELLIS »

Hey guys (&gals) , the layer of mud will be there for ever. the salt builds up in layers . winter rain washes salty silt off the land , water evaporates and leaves salt.Simple EH?With the huge downpours of Jan '07 , too much rain , too much washed on to lake , hence the layer of mud under 1/2" of salt .Now we need gentle rain to help build the thickness of salt on our precious course and lots of hot sun in summer to evaporate the water , to make the salt crust thicker!Hope this helps answer your question. Cheers ,Bob #66 C/GCC.
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questions, questions, questions!

Post by David Leikvold »

Bob, a few quick questions, all dependent on the weather:
Which is best for salt buildup, lots of rain or lots of dry?
Is the salt likely to be much thicker by March?
If it doesn't get any thicker but is hard and dry, will it be OK to race on?
Will the salt get any thicker if it doesn't rain again?
Assuming the salt is hard enough to race on, how much salt is the Dodge with the RSJ likely to remove?
Were there other parts of the lake nearby that were less affected by the mud and might be more use to us in 2008?

And one question for lagwagon, are you going to drive your car to the salt like Don or are you going to trailer it there?
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Post by hawkwind racing »

I spoke to a geologist reciently about how the salt forms and what happens to the mud etc . He had no idea ,said it was a specialists field and to get in touch with the CSIRO and speak to some one there , Ive also sifted through reams of google gobbleygook on salt lake formation ,may as well be written in greek ,seems the salt grows from the bottom ,from super saturated brine and crystalises or not :oops:
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Re: questions, questions, questions!

Post by lag waggon »

David Leikvold wrote:And one question for lagwagon, are you going to drive your car to the salt like Don or are you going to trailer it there?



David when my car was on the road i could only drive to the sunshine coast be fore my back ached from the race seat so theres no way in hell im driving that pig to the lake ( i got a aluminium race seat now with less padding than before), its going to be a trailer queen.
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Post by Stayt`ie »

i guess the best (and only) answer on the condition of the salt come the 08 event, is to have a couple of blokes go to the lake and really check it out a few weeks before,, i would suggest this to be standard pratice for all future events,,, also have a "d day", say, one week before the event, or proir to sending the survay blokes out...
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Re: questions, questions, questions!

Post by DLRA »

David Leikvold wrote:Bob, a few quick questions, all dependent on the weather:
Which is best for salt buildup, lots of rain or lots of dry?
Is the salt likely to be much thicker by March?
If it doesn't get any thicker but is hard and dry, will it be OK to race on?
Will the salt get any thicker if it doesn't rain again?
Assuming the salt is hard enough to race on, how much salt is the Dodge with the RSJ likely to remove?
Were there other parts of the lake nearby that were less affected by the mud and might be more use to us in 2008?

And one question for lagwagon, are you going to drive your car to the salt like Don or are you going to trailer it there?


Dunno.

Dunno.

Yes.

No.

The scaper only knocks the top off the little ridges that are formed by the wind, it certainly doesn't dig into the salt at all. The old Dodge wouldn't like that at all.

Typically the water comes from the North West end of the lake, judging by what I saw the whole of the lake was affected this year. We are restricted to just the southern most protion of the lake.
Keep the shiney side up........
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flyingwombat
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Post by flyingwombat »

Thanks goggles
Most of those are the reasons I had planned not to run suspension.
I started this project last august but had been on hold since
december (loss of job) I had planned on going this year to spectate.
I have been on landracing.com for 18 months, and had decided on
no suspension because of the reputation that our salt is so smooth.

Also I had a bad experience with an ill handling sports sedan
It had inboard rocker suspension kept upping the spring rate
to the point wher all the suspension was from the tyres and
chasis flex, proved this by putting a solid bar in place of the
springs.. made me scrap that chasis lol
Thank god weight is our allie in lsr, cos this chasis is gunna
be strong.
Also just noticed on landracing site 21.5 inch goodyears
may have o investigate these as fronts
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Re: questions, questions, questions!

Post by DON NOBLE »

lag waggon wrote:
David Leikvold wrote:And one question for lagwagon, are you going to drive your car to the salt like Don or are you going to trailer it there?



David when my car was on the road i could only drive to the sunshine coast be fore my back ached from the race seat so theres no way in hell im driving that pig to the lake ( i got a aluminium race seat now with less padding than before), its going to be a trailer queen.

Nah !!! , come on be a bloke . I swap my seat over when i get there . Nothing like drivng your race car the 2200 kms there .
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Post by Dr Goggles »

hawkwind racing wrote:I spoke to a geologist reciently about how the salt forms and what happens to the mud etc . He had no idea ,said it was a specialists field and to get in touch with the CSIRO and speak to some one there , Ive also sifted through reams of google gobbleygook on salt lake formation ,may as well be written in greek ,seems the salt grows from the bottom ,from super saturated brine and crystalises or not :oops:


Hi Gary , I've been thinking about this.( oh,oh)....I don't reckon it's all that complicated...A supersaturated solution is the maximum concentration that water will hold at a given temperature , beyond that the solute( salts , mostly sodium but also potassium , calcium and Phosphorus ...I think)..will precipitate out .Different compounds have different solubility and it depends on what else is present .From my Uni chemistry I seem to remember ( seem) that acidity or alkalinity play a part in whether some compounds are soluble at all, this on top of their chemical type .We are talking here about ionic ( now that's a Greek word) compounds .The reason that the sea is salty is because salt is so soluble , it is leached out by water and flows to where the water goes ...but it doesn't evaporate with the water...so the water continues to cycle around ever concentrating the salt at the lower points on the earths surface .Every time the Lake gets wet you would expect the water to be supersaturated with salt .That water is then evaporated , sinks through or is blown across the surface.

Lets say rain falls on the surface , it is pure water ,lying there is mud washed onto the lake during a storm. That mud isn't very soluble ...puddles are usually clear unless you stir them up , but the salt readily dissolves in the rain water .Now we have a puddle of salty water with a layer of red mud on the bottom .As the water evaporates the salt "falls" out of solution and lands on top of the iron oxide mud and stays there because it weighs less .This process I believe would be continuing at any time that the underlayer of the lake is wet with the heavier mineral soil working it's way down through the salt.

A differing temp. gradient might explain ....." seems the salt grows from the bottom ,from super saturated brine and crystalises or not " because if the layer of water was "still" it would be warmer at the top....therefore it would support a higher saturation...and possibly increase the "sorting" effect which purifies the surface.

Finally , have a think about those hyper-saline ponds they use for generating power , they have a dark bottom and a stratified saline layers which cause the lowest layer to heat to 60C or more......the salt lake is white and so would have the reverse temp. gradient causing the salt to do just as you contend and "grow from the bottom".......


Shit , I dunno :? but if that's half right I hope it keeps raining out there or the National Trust are going to want to protect our car as an antiquity before it gets to run :lol:
...few understand what I'm trying to do , but they vastly outnumber those who understand why..
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Post by ben james »

i'm going to score that last post geek factor 9.5 out of 10.
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hawkwind racing
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Re: Goggleybook , and the Parthenon.

Post by hawkwind racing »

Dr Goggles wrote:
hawkwind racing wrote:I spoke to a geologist reciently about how the salt forms and what happens to the mud etc . He had no idea ,said it was a specialists field and to get in touch with the CSIRO and speak to some one there , Ive also sifted through reams of google gobbleygook on salt lake formation ,may as well be written in greek ,seems the salt grows from the bottom ,from super saturated brine and crystalises or not :oops:


Hi Gary , I've been thinking about this.( oh,oh)....I don't reckon it's all that complicated...A supersaturated solution is the maximum concentration that water will hold at a given temperature , beyond that the solute( salts , mostly sodium but also potassium , calcium and Phosphorus ...I think)..will precipitate out .Different compounds have different solubility and it depends on what else is present .From my Uni chemistry I seem to remember ( seem) that acidity or alkalinity play a part in whether some compounds are soluble at all, this on top of their chemical type .We are talking here about ionic ( now that's a Greek word) compounds .The reason that the sea is salty is because salt is so soluble , it is leached out by water and flows to where the water goes ...but it doesn't evaporate with the water...so the water continues to cycle around ever concentrating the salt at the lower points on the earths surface .Every time the Lake gets wet you would expect the water to be supersaturated with salt .That water is then evaporated , sinks through or is blown across the surface.

Lets say rain falls on the surface , it is pure water ,lying there is mud washed onto the lake during a storm. That mud isn't very soluble ...puddles are usually clear unless you stir them up , but the salt readily dissolves in the rain water .Now we have a puddle of salty water with a layer of red mud on the bottom .As the water evaporates the salt "falls" out of solution and lands on top of the iron oxide mud and stays there because it weighs less .This process I believe would be continuing at any time that the underlayer of the lake is wet with the heavier mineral soil working it's way down through the salt.

A differing temp. gradient might explain ....." seems the salt grows from the bottom ,from super saturated brine and crystalises or not " because if the layer of water was "still" it would be warmer at the top....therefore it would support a higher saturation...and possibly increase the "sorting" effect which purifies the surface.

Finally , have a think about those hyper-saline ponds they use for generating power , they have a dark bottom and a stratified saline layers which cause the lowest layer to heat to 60C or more......the salt lake is white and so would have the reverse temp. gradient causing the salt to do just as you contend and "grow from the bottom".......


Shit , I dunno :? but if that's half right I hope it keeps raining out there or the National Trust are going to want to protect our car as an antiquity before it gets to run :lol:


Ah good Dr but consider the following
In an earlier study on chemical osmosis in clay membranes, a slow dissipation of the osmotically induced hydraulic pressure difference was observed. This nonideal behavior of the clay as a semipermeable membrane was explained by diffusion of salt throughout the clay as a result of the imposed salt concentration gradient. In addition, it was postulated that diffusion of salt causes shrinkage of the electrical double layers of the clay platelets, enhancing flocculation and making the clay more permeable. In the present study, experiments were performed to investigate the flocculation and hydraulic permeability behavior of a bentonite when permeated by gradually increasing salt solutions. The flocculation value was determined by flocculation series tests with NaC1 solutions at different clay suspension densities. The tests show that the Na montmorillonite used has a flocculation value below 0.02 M NaCl. Hydraulic conductivity experiments were conducted using a flexible wall permeameter with NaC1 solutions of different ionic strengths on a clay sample with a thickness of approximately 2 mm. During the experiments, an overburden pressure of 4 bar was applied to prevent swelling. For all NaCl solutions used, both above and below the flocculation value, the hydraulic conductivity stayed constant with values of approximately 2.3.10[-12] m.s[-1]. This implies that flocculation does not take place in the osmotic experiments, and shrinkage of the diffuse part of the electrical double layers of the clay platelets seems to be compensated for by the overburden pressure. Therefore, the dissipation of an osmotically induced hydraulic pressure difference is more likely to be explained by diffusion of salt throughout the clay.

which adds more fuel to the fire
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Greg Watters
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Post by Greg Watters »

Gary If i understand any of that i think its more relevant to salty water table rising in clay soils .like some of the shallow salt lakes in the Kerang area

I'm hoping the mud sinks deep , but as long as its dry shallow may not be too bad, isn't Bonneville rather shallow due to saltmining ?
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