which fuels are legal

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RGV
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by RGV » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:16 am

So the question remains. What petrol is LEGAL to use in the Gasoline Class?

Is Avgas OK to use as like JD pointed out we can get it from a pump at OG Speed Shop?

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Greg Watters
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Greg Watters » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:43 am

Forget pump its irrelevant, both gas class and fuel class can come out of a pump

Is it oxygenated,
does it have ethanol,
does it have mtbe or bottled otane booster

http://www.vpracing.com.au/unleaded.htm
http://www.vpracing.com.au/leaded.htm
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/leaded
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/unleaded
ERC are less clear , but supply SCTA i could get a list of gas and fuel class suitability from Rick
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm

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Dr Goggles
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Dr Goggles » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:59 am

....I just had a squiz at the SCTA rule book...aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, I was wrong. :oops:

"Gasoline ,as produced, is a mixture of hydrocarbons which may include some SCTA acceptable oxygenates(*).SCTA further defines gasoline as a liquid that does not contain nitrogen bearing compounds, nor propylene oxide,nor ethylene oxide and NO MORE THAN 10% methanol"

I hope THAT cleared everything up...... :roll:

So, they say METHANOL which ain't ETHANOL and the dielectric testing regime isn't just beyond most competitors its beyond our little club.....

The SCTA get around the complexity of this by providing "event gasoline" if you don't have a sealed tank of that you are in fuel class.....there is a certain amount of sportsmanship involved here in Oz with regard to this....

Still no help.

* no, me neither...............
...few understand what I'm trying to do , but they vastly outnumber those who understand why..

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:55 pm

Thanks Greg

This is an issue that comes out of adopting the SCTA Rule Book.
It will take a bit of time to clear this up but is not impossible with some guidance from SCTA.

Is it possible,for 2012 at least, a short list of some of the known Race Gas we can use could be posted eg:

RF100 aka "AVGAS"
BP Ultimate 98 unleaded
VP C16
etc,etc.

It also looks like if you plan to run E85 enter Fuel Class.

Stay Cool
Pete
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momec3
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by momec3 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:52 pm

Eventually when our club has grown a little more an "event gas/fuel" could save us all money and cut out any question of legality.

We all take too much to Speedweek so we don't run out and I would guess from personal experience most times about half comes home and is wasted.
With many of the race fuels at $7.00 plus a litre it would make lots of sence to buy what you need at the Lake.

This could also improve safety/enviro concerns with a central (static earthed) refuel point on the Lake.

Chris
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Johno Senior » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:24 am

Hi Guys,
just bumping this thread up looking for answers on what commercial fuels were OK to run in GAS,

OR
what is the highest rated octane gas availalable that can be legally run in gas ????

Based on the previous discussions in 2010 where different petrol brands were suggested, what did people run at this years meet. ? :?:
I'm kinda hoping that my old time favourite BP 100 Avgas from OG speed shop was OK as I'm used to tuning with it over the last 40 years. Kinda sadden me if I couldnt use it. :(

So fellas what petrol gas was the go this year. ( legally of course)
johno

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zork
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by zork » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:53 am

Yep that's what I ran, BP AV via a bowser from Scotcher Petroleum.

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:24 pm

After a fair bit of looking at my options I ended up using Sunoco Supreme, but this was in a 2 Stroke.

It worked a treat, being a faster burning Gasoline, designed to run in Hi RPM engines with up to 15:1 Comp Ratio.

Sunoco make a number of Gas Class Legal fuels for different engine set ups. http://www.racegas.com/

It's available here from VPW http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/374756 I have always found them easy to deal with.

While it is expensive, special blended Race Gas/Fuel is going to be consistent.

ERC and VP Race fuels make a range of Legal Gas/Fuels.

Pete :D
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momec3
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by momec3 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:19 pm

C14+ and welcome aboard.
Fffing expensive but the pistons love it

Chris
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Johno Senior » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:45 pm

Thanks for the info guys. :D
Pete I jumped on your Sunaco link and sent an email to them with our gas class rules, the dialelectric doda thingo etc :wink: ( my day they just used sg test, got busted once,..... after using good petrol for practice, drained it out and replaced with class gas supplied at track by bobby jane and then fronted up on the grid for start of race, surprise fuel check, guess where the sample was taken from , yup the bloody carby , had not drained that or started the engine to flush the fuel , bugger , rear of field and slapped while I screamed innocents )

Dont want to get busted again. most embarrasing.

I gave Sunaco some engine specs , dyno numbers, etc will post the Sunaco responce.
regards Johno

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:20 am

momec3 wrote:C14+ and welcome aboard.
Fffing expensive but the pistons love it

Chris
Same with the Sunoco, I got an almost perfectly linear curve on the dyno :D and I have not seen that very often with the type of engine that I run. No detonation anywhere even though I ran a lot more ignition advance.

Johno as far as I can tell all the non oxygenated fuels are Gas legal. It will be interesting to see what they send back.

Pete
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Greg Watters
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Greg Watters » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:15 am

I asked the same question last yr for the Max Nos , Sunnoco replied promptly that it was g compliant but were not specific exactly what the DC was , older version of the fuel was listed and you just had to look it up

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internetscooter
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by internetscooter » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:23 am

How do you guys go for storage? If I leave fuel in my tank it loses power within a few weeks (won't even start after a few months) as it is living in a tin shed with lots of temperature fluctuations and the tank has a breather hole.

If the fuel is bought say 3 months before, a bit used for dynoing, will the rest be OK for the event just stored in the container in the shed? Or do you "Store fuel where there are minimal temperature swings" as recommended on the Sunco site?

Also stated is "Keep fuel tanks and fuel cells as full as possible", so do you split it up into smaller containers once you've popped the cork?

http://www.racegas.com/article/9

I guess I am trying to ascertain if I need to buy two batches - one for the race and the other for experimentation :)
Paul
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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:26 pm

15.0 is the current DLRA acceptable dielectric ceiling. Most gasoline will
check under this ceiling. At a non-“EVENT” gasoline meet, any gasoline that measures 15.0 or less on
the D.C. scale and meets all other DLRA requirements will be allowed.


DC for the following Sunoco Non Oxygenated Race Gas according to the Tech Specs on the Sunoco website. http://www.racegas.com/

Leaded:

HCRPlus 0.5
MaxNOS 0.2
Maximal -0.85
Standard -0.2
Supreme -0.63

Unleaded

260 GTX 1.5

Most of the other Oxygenated fuels were below 15 with only, SS100, Optima, Green E15™, EXO2, not listing a DC reading.

The Gas that had a DC close to or higher than 15 were:

Sunoco 260 GT Plus is a high octane, highly oxygenated unleaded race fuel: 18
Sunoco® FR™ is an unleaded oxygenated race fuel formulated to meet FIA and FIM race fuel specifications: 14.4

Pete :D
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Johno Senior
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Johno Senior » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:20 am

Hi Guys, the boys from sunoco fuels got back to me today, :D
Re my Honda CB 750 MG750 I sent them engine specs , dyno chart and also a computer engine analysis etc class gas rules etc

Their responce;

Mark:

From an octane perspective your engine could use any of our fuels. But if you are limited to no alcohol, that eliminates a lot of fuels. We do list the alcohol content of the fuels that have alcohol in them.

On the unleaded side, you could use Optima or 260 GTX. Given the heat, I'd recommend the 260 GTX if you want to run an unleaded fuel.

If you are looking for a leaded fuel, Supreme would be a good choice. It's fast burning which works well in higher-RPM applications.

Re. timing, you don't need to push the timing to the point of detonation. As you're probably aware, there is an ideal timing point for each fuel and air/fuel ratio. A fuel should have sufficient octane to allow that ideal timing point to be reached. High octane fuels will allow timing advance beyond that ideal point, in which case the fuel will still prevent detonation but you will be wasting energy and heating up your motor. So, especially if you run Supreme, don't push the timing to the point of detonation, as I'm sure that point will be well past the ideal timing point.

Thanks for the inquiry,
Mike / Sunoco Race Fuels

For me his last comments were good as on my engine software analysis it showed I had a detonation problem right through the midrange and warned me to back of the advance until 7 or 8 grand ( redline 10,500 rpm) then bring it on. Thats probably why he is making the point on timing.
Anyway I'm happy , I will give the the Pizza Supreme a go, :D
ciao Johno

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