which fuels are legal

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:35 pm

That looks like a good response. I found the Supreme a pretty good fuel.

As far as ignition timing, I am lucky with the RGV as there are a number of maps around.
I used the same settings as the Suzuki Race Kit Ignition Timing map with a little more retard at peak RPM, but that's a smoker.

Good luck with it :D

Pete
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RGV
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by RGV » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:06 am

Sorry to bring this ugly subject up again. Im finding it hard to fine details of what gas has ethanol and what dosnt. United say they put a MAX of 10% Ethanol in its 98 and 100. BP, Shell and Caltex dont seem to want to tell how much Ethanol they put in theirs. I would like to run United 100. I need clarification as to what gasoline is legal to use.

http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/unite ... remium-100

http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/unite ... premium-98

I can run 10% Methanol but no Ethanol?

From the 2014 rules downloaded from the DLRA site.

"GASOLINE CLASSES:
The DLRA defines gasoline to contain no nitrogen bearing compounds, no propylene oxide, no ethylene
oxide, and no more than 10% methanol. The contest board may choose any test or combination of tests
to assure that liquid fuels used in GASOLINE classes comply with these specifications. The tests may
include, but will not be limited to testing for the dielectric constant (D.C.) value, color comparisons,
specific gravity, gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, and/or other testing methods. The addition of
compounds containing oxygen, such as ethanol, methanol and other oxygenates may produce a mixture
with a D.C. greater than 15.0 as measured with a Kavlico Model FT-K01 “DC Meter” zeroed on reagent
grade, pure CYCLOHEXANE. 15.0 is the current DLRA acceptable dielectric ceiling. Most gasoline will
check under this ceiling. At a non-“EVENT” gasoline meet, any gasoline that measures 15.0 or less on
the D.C. scale and meets all other DLRA requirements will be allowed.
All liquid gasoline blends can be tested and certified to have a specific D.C., color, specific gravity, and
other chemical properties. All gasoline that is tested and meets the DLRA definition of gasoline may be
allowed on a case by case basis by the Contest Board. It is recommended that unknown gas be
submitted to the DLRA and checked before use in competition.
E85 is not allowed in gas classes."

Thanx
Dave

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hawkwind
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by hawkwind » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:09 am

Bottom line is we don't test :idea: if you want to be honest E10 is usable in gasoline classes as far as im aware there is no M10 available in aussy ...me thinks the methanol is a typo and should be ethanol.
cheers
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Greg Watters
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Greg Watters » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:28 am

You can test ethanol content yourself , in a sealed bottle , put some fuel about 1/4-1/3, mark the bottle at the fuel level then add a similar amount of water and shake
the water will pull the ethanol out of the fuel and the difference between the fuel level line and the new fuel separation point is the amount of ethanol

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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by DLRA » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:11 am

talking to Bob Ellis last night, evidently Ross has obtained a fuel tester, and it will be used at least on some motorcycle classes as he intends to run an impound this year.
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RGV
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by RGV » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:32 pm

DLRA wrote:talking to Bob Ellis last night, evidently Ross has obtained a fuel tester, and it will be used at least on some motorcycle classes as he intends to run an impound this year.

Even more reason to have an answer. Can I use United Premium 100 remembering it has a MAX of 10% ETHANOL ??

7.B.11 Gasoline:
The addition of a power additive or changes of any nature (other than oil designated for lubrication only)
to GASOLINE is prohibited. The penalty for violation of this standard shall be disqualification. See Section
2.B.

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hawkwind
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by hawkwind » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:39 pm

RGV seems they will be testing petrol this year :o ...only for record breakers .....only suggestion I can come up with is test your petrol with a hydrometer or similar method....at Bonneville they at least have a control petrol and sealed tank so you know it complies....specific gravities are quite variable..VP racing petrols range from 0.695 to 0.805 with methanol being 0.795 and pump petrol varies as well 0.72/ 0.77....not sure testing via specific gravity will work very well as the alchy is within the range of racing gas :?
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Stayt`ie
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Stayt`ie » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:53 pm

....specific gravities are quite variable[/quote]

Dependant on the temperature of the mixture being tested in the beaker at the time,, :wink: ,,

have just refered back to my notes, and i recon theres no reason for you fellas running Gasoline to sweat it,,

Methanol @ 60*f or 15.55*c = .792 (automotive industrie standard)
@ 70*f or 21.11*c = .789
@ 80*f or 26.66*c = .785
@ 90*f or 32.22*c = .781
@ 100*f or 37.77*c = .776

this shows the specific gravity change across the temperature range likely to be encounted at the lake, you can see from this that 10* Methanol in Gasoline will show two parts of stuff all,, :)
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:41 pm

Given the move towards Impound,that I agree with, and the way the SCTA Based rule is written,

I think it's a simple question being asked here.

Can we run an E10 Petrol in Gas Class? (it is available at just about every Petrol Station in most places in Australia.)

Pete :D
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RGV
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by RGV » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:58 pm

I can test my Gas with a hydrometer before I use it if I had a cut off point but there isn't one in the rule book.I cant see any reference to the S.G. of Gasoline.

Thanx
Dave

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Greg Watters
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Greg Watters » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:18 am

Does the fuel supplier have a safety data sheet with the SG listed

Ronnie thanks for that info :) saves me looking it up , want to check some long stored methanol

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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by Stayt`ie » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:31 pm

hay fellas, i just stumbled across this "Observed Specific Gravity verses true Specific Gravity @60*f for Gasoline",, tried the cut and paste and copy thing, but being cyber challenged nothing worked for me, :? :roll: ,, anywhay if ya wanna check it out, go to "kinsler.com", click on "catalogue and hand book" (i think), find page #200, the chart shows all,, enjoy, :D ,,
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AuotonomousRX
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by AuotonomousRX » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:08 am

Greg Watters wrote:Does the fuel supplier have a safety data sheet with the SG listed

Ronnie thanks for that info :) saves me looking it up , want to check some long stored methanol
Greg the SG on E10 is not available on the MSDS issued by a number of the Companies and on the ones that do, there is no consistent SG measurements listed.

I believe there is still some testing going on so that this can be cleared up.

Does the DLRA have a Kavlico Model FT-K01 “DC Meter”?

If so can a test be done using it on some E10?

Then an answer can be given in line with the procedures in the Gas Class Rules.

Pete :D
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RGV
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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by RGV » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:27 pm

OK I found some more info on United Premium 100.

Here are 2 quotes from their site.

"S.G. 0.72 @ 15 deg. C"

"How much ethanol is in Premium 100?
The Federal Government has regulated a 10% limited for ethanol in petrol. United has strict procedures in place to ensure it always complies with this limit."

So unless someone says otherwise its OK to run in the Gas class.

http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/unite ... remium-100

http://unitedpetroleum.com.au/docs/msds ... p&sfvrsn=0

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2011 Washed Out:(
2012 Washed Out:(
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2014 MPS/G 250 140 MPH (RECORD):)
2015 MPS/F 250 DNF:(

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Re: which fuels are legal

Post by BOB ELLIS » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:41 pm

Like I said in a post earlier ( on another thread) , DONT take the fuel company's word that it is 10% , And they will not tell you the truth. If you believe the info from united, that's ok , but why not just run 91 , 95 , 98 to be sure.

Bob Ellis
DLRA Chief Car Inspector

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