Engine simulator

Moderator: DLRA

Post Reply
hawkwind
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:50 pm

Engine simulator

Post by hawkwind » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:29 pm

Have been looking around for a reasonable engine simulator ( reasonable as in value for $$) read many good things about performance trends engine analyser stuff so I did a free download demo of their premium analyser pro V3.9 enterprise (top of the range).....they ( performance trends ) say all features are unlocked and available for 10 day trail. For close to 700$US to purchase, I wanted something that would suit the stuff I do........so I downloaded it and set about inputting a large amount of data .........results where not what I expected .......I have dyno test results and wanted to see how close the real thing matched the simulator ( I know the story garbage in = garbage out )
Calculated graphs (dyno simulation ) where vaguely similar to the real dyno graphs.....but after careful searching for mistakes I came to the following conclusions.

The programme either does not support the following or they are not available on the demo trial despite assurances all features are unlocked.
Water or water /meth injection either pre or post turbo. ( only air or air /water intercoolers)
Staged injection using multiple sized injectors per cylinder ( only allows one injector size no stagging)
Methanol / nitro methane or nitro methane fuels (supports petrol or methanol only at a fixed AFR)
only allows one AFR for methanol (5:1)
Nitrous for turbo spool ( allows for start rpm but no stop rpm)
smallest shot of nitrous is 75 hp ( programme is biased toward large sepo V8's)
Also it appears not to calculate the enthalpy of vaporisation ( heat of vaporisation ) cooling effect of methanol ( without inputs for an intercooler results produced are same for using petrol or methanol temp charge wise)
Also the results tell me I can put 500+ CFM of exhaust through a T3 0.63 A/R turbine and have only 10 psi of back pressure at 11K rpm ?????

As mentioned the programme is very much biased toward car/ V8 platforms with most of the engine libraries for sepo v8's very few motorcycle. these libraries provide very detailed data for the featured engines.

Question if anyone uses this programme are things mentioned above supported ? or am I trying stuff to far off the beaten track ?
Are there any other simulation programmes for under a grand that cater much more for the above? and are much more friendly to motorcycle ppl?
cheers
Gary
Vehicle......................A new creation.
Designed by................Troglodyte.
Engineered/ built by......Rustic.
Financed by.................Nickles & Dimes.
Rider......................... Tardus Vetus Inflatio

User avatar
Greg Watters
Posts: 759
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 pm

Re: Engine simulator

Post by Greg Watters » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:18 am

Gary i will ask Graeme with the R1 to chime in he has used it for a long time and it seems very accurate on his drag bikes ,but thats NA no nos

livewire
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:21 am
Location: Gladstone

Re: Engine simulator

Post by livewire » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:02 am

Hi Gary
Have used this stuff, and found it to be very effective.
Several times have seen motors 'designed' on the software, and dyno results of built motor within 1 %, with accurate power curve shape too, not just peak HP.
You're right, there's a lot of parameters, and you need to accurately input them all. Small discrepancies can cause major result variations.
just my 2 cents, but to try and calculate the results for staging/ NOS/ turbo/ etc etc is a lot of 'work', and at the end of the day, the actual end 'pump' has to replicate the data entered pretty accurately.
Thinking most 'standard' motor combinations, turbos included, are now pretty well established, and with Boosters expertise and help, you'd save a lot of time and eyestrain.
Be careful you don't end up racing dyno simulators, instead of LSR Bikes!!
Flat NACA Racing

Stayt`ie
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Engine simulator

Post by Stayt`ie » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:17 pm

Gary, i have used Engine Analyzer Plus V3.2 for quiet a few years now and agree with what Graeme has said above,, when i first got it i set all the parameters to a built motor, then ran that motor on a dyno (all my LSR motors have been tuned on this one dyno), the final horsepower figure was off by about 10hp so i tweeked the small stuff(accessories, crankcase pressure, bearings etc) until it achieved the same hp number as ran on the dyno,, since then all readings have come up within 3%,, its a very usefull tool to play with when looking what to do with stuff, for example changing exhaust cam timing along with modifying exhaust pipes to gain extra hp's,, i have also messed around with it on my mates ZX10 dragbike, he used the same dyno that i do, and his hp figures were within one,,, all naturally aspirated, have never tried the blown parameters,,,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

User avatar
dplecko
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Engine simulator

Post by dplecko » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:30 am

Very glad someone asked about an engine simulator, have been meaning to ask for some time.

I have played with both Dynomation & Performance Trends Engine Analyser since the very first DOS versions in the 1980's, and both the current Windows versions.

Not overly convinced that either asks all the correct input questions to properly simulate a turbo engine (let alone compound).

I do have my own home brew simulator, many columns and rows of spreadsheet, which is surprisingly adequate to date and even has an attempt at the cooling effect of methanol based on AFR. I am not a rocket scientist by any means, and don't have much HP per CI yet, simply trying to learn...slowly. The Dyno in the mancave does help.

Has anyone used EngMod4T (or 2T)? I think Neels is very much on the right track even though it needs a lot more work on the user interface and is very 'fundamental' with the input data (that's a good thing). I just haven't had time to pursue it any further, still fabricating some of the very obvious 'easy gets'.

Apparently if you need to ask how much the other software costs you obviously can't afford it.

hawkwind
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: Engine simulator

Post by hawkwind » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:11 am

Played with it ( engine simulator) until the trial expired .....sadly it cannot deal with my out of the square data .....water injection , multiple staged injectors, methanol/nitromethane fuel nor does it calculate the cooling effect of methanol.
Ended up with sort of the figures taken from the dyno charts but had to guess/juggle at some inputs and pretend I had an intercooler ...without the WI on reasonable results from simulating an air to air intercooler with WI on similar results from simulating between water /air and ice water air intercooler.....the simulator recons the duration of the cam is to long and it could use a bit more lift as well and I could raise the CR from 10:1 to 12.5:1 for better results as well and that was all the way to 30 psig ? also it calculates the ron+mon/2 at only 104 for methanol this maybe true at stoich 6.5:1 but rich meth is 120+ octane so it predicted I would be well into detonation once on boost also it predicted I would go from 1 psig boost to maximum boost within 1000 rpm at each boot level where the real dyno charts show that although a steep rise it happened over 2500 rpm.

Anyway I did not purchase it ...will use the money to buy more fleabay Chinese parts :)
Vehicle......................A new creation.
Designed by................Troglodyte.
Engineered/ built by......Rustic.
Financed by.................Nickles & Dimes.
Rider......................... Tardus Vetus Inflatio

User avatar
dplecko
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Engine simulator

Post by dplecko » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:08 pm

Hi Gary,
Screenshot of my own home brew spreadsheet simulator. The plots are the simulation of HP & boost vs actual dyno and datalog. There is not a lot of science behind it, simply VE% x RPM x density. Reasonably accurately simulates boost onset and turbine AR changes. I find it very useful, it plots over compressor maps and generally helps understanding things a little better.

I was basically forced into this because there is no simulator available (with reach, i.e. <$1,000) that I am aware of for compound turbos. Not sure what the diesel guys use.

Dave

Image

Stayt`ie
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Engine simulator

Post by Stayt`ie » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:33 am

my old Z1 turboed drag bike loved small duration with heaps of lift, :wink: ,, also, nitromethane at high rpm has an accelerated burn time,, :wink: :wink: ,,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Post Reply