Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

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rgn

Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:45 pm

Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?
Hi All,
I’m wondering if I could get some input on the following rule questions pertaining to Motorcycles…
I’ve been looking at section 1 (General Requirements) and can’t find anything on the transportation of motorcycles or race vehicles. Where can they be ridden-driven, and where they can’t?
In 2013 we could ride in the pits, and on the return roads, but I believe things have changed.
Is there something I have missed in Section 1 that deals with this?

In relation to rule 1.L (Participant Conduct) it states
“Any reckless conduct by a race participant, e.g. doing warm-up passes without a helmet or other required equipment outside the designated warm-up area…will be referred to the Contest Board for action.”
The way this reads is that it is okay to do warm up passes inside the designated warm up area, without a helmet or other normally required equipment.
Will there be a designated warm up area in 2015?

In relation to rule 1.L (Participant Conduct) it states

“A DRIVER/RIDER SHALL BE IN OR UPON THE RACE VEHICLE ANY TIME THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.”

Where can you have your bike running without the rider (or driver) sitting on it (in it), if at all?
I’m guessing Rider-Driver means someone who is registered to the bike-car ie: the person who has entered the bike as the rider in class.

If for instance you have the bike on stands, on warmers, is it not appropriate to start it for warm up purposes and final safety checks prior to run, even if crew are in direct supervision of the bike.
If you are in your designated pit area and you wish to do a carburetor balance with the bike striped of body work, do you have to have the designated rider seated on bike while this is happening?
Let’s face it; the rider in most cases is the person who is doing the mechanical preparation, so this rule creates a problem for almost everyone.

In my mind warming up (or running) a bike without the entered rider sitting on it is normal sensible and safe practice. It allows for warm up of motor and fluids, along with final prep and observation of the vehicle, whether that is in the pits, in your work area, or prior to going on track.

I understand the DLRA doesn't write the rules, but, I wonder if this is in our best interests?

grumm441
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by grumm441 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:12 am

Road rules apply on the lake when you're not on the course
If you are riding the bike on the lake you will be wearing a helmet.
Any rider seen riding on the lake without a helmet will be yellow stickered and stood down for 24 hours

A DRIVER/RIDER SHALL BE IN OR UPON THE RACE VEHICLE ANY TIME THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.
seems pretty clear to me. I would think that it would make sense to have someone in control of a bike being warmed up with landspeed gearing
If you don't like the rule, you could always put in a rulechange, however, I don't think you'll succeed with this one

I am glad to see that you are bringing this up as it means you have read chapter one in the rules
G
They make it
I make it work

rgn

Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:21 pm

Thanks Graham, yes I read the rules (the ones pertaining to motorcycles) I've got no idea how car crews or teams operate, so any enquiry on my part is MC based. They say ignorance is bliss, but probably not if you get a day ban, 24 hours is a big part out of anyones racing year.

Are you saying it is okay to ride a race bike on the race track approach and return roads? Where does the racetrack begin, and where does it finish?

I'm not sure how LSR gearing has an effect on a bike that is in neutral on race stands with tyre warmers on? or is being worked on in the pits?

If the bikes are in the back of a transporter, or registered enclosed trailer, in the the above mentioned condition, on stands warmers etc, does there need to be a person sitting on it when it is running?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really need to know how to approach 2015. While I respect all the rules, they are significantly different to anything I have encountered in motor racing, so hence the need to be clear, and to change our approach if necessary so we are safe from possible penalty.

Is there any support for a rule change in relation to having to have a rider seated on a running motorcycle amongst the Motorcycle entries?

grumm441
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by grumm441 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:25 pm

Section one of the rules applies to everyone
some of section two applies to motorcycles and then there are motorcycle streamliners which are covered by the car streamliner rules
Currently it is OK to ride competition vehicles to and from the timed tracks, if you are wearing a helmet
currently there is not a warm up or a test area due to issues with speeding on it in the past
It is now used as the GPS track
I would have thought the reference to landspeed gearing was obvious, if you are warming up the engine and gearbox.
Not everyone runs a production motorcycle and the rule is there for everyone's safety
If it's in a transporter or on a trailer, it is not on the salt
At this stage I don't believe there is any support for a change to rule 1L in this direction
However there is support for a change to rule 1L to be more like the SCTA rule that prevents all vehicle from being ridden or driven except on the timed course
and requires all vehicles to be towed to and from the course
G
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They make it
I make it work

Colesy
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by Colesy » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:56 pm

"If you don't like the rule, you could always put in a rule change, however, I don't think you'll succeed with this one"

With reference to the above statement, why do we have the forms and the ability to put forward a rule change when it has already been decided?
I can't see the issue with starting up a M/C on a stand where the rear wheel is off the ground and in neutral. I for one like to do my own pre-ride checks as I am the pilot, builder and mechanic, therefore can see or hear any issues before heading to the start line. A thorough pre-ride check cannot be done sitting on top of the M/C.

If a person is sitting on the M/C in the pits are they paying attention and in control as they would be at the start line?
I would understand the rule better and agree, if someone can provide some case studies, frequency and seriousness of incidents happening from not sitting on a M/C while working on it in the pits at LG.

Until then, I would support rgn with their proposal.

grumm441
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by grumm441 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:17 am

Colesy wrote: With reference to the above statement, why do we have the forms and the ability to put forward a rule change when it has already been decided?
That's a big jump from
grumm441 wrote: If you don't like the rule, you could always put in a rule change, however, I don't think you'll succeed with this one
G
I certainly get the final say with motorcycle rules, and am happy to change them if there is some merit in rule change put before the motorcycle group
However, I have no sway with the GENERAL COMPETITION REQUIREMENTS section of the rule book.
It looks like the rule has been in the book since 2010

As I previously stated
grumm441 wrote: If you don't like the rule, you could always put in a rule change, however, I don't think you'll succeed with this one
G
They make it
I make it work

rgn

Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:40 pm

....Ipse dixit....
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grumm441
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by grumm441 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:06 pm

rgn wrote:Ipse dixit
Pot, Kettle
They make it
I make it work

David Leikvold
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by David Leikvold » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:11 am

Bob Ellis reminded us this year at the start line that if the engine is running there must be someone at the controls, bike or car. That means sitting on or in and ready to react if something goes awry. Whether that is likely or even possible doesn't matter. I can't see how a car with a conventional manual transmission could take off on its own, or a bike on a rear axle stand but I've noticed over the years that rules are often added after something goes wrong. If a car with an automatic transmission was idling roughly in neutral it wouldn't be impossible for a poorly adjusted linkage to shake enough to drop into Drive. That admittedly unlikely scenario could easily result in someone being run over because they were facing the start line. So next year I'll be including a warning to everyone at the start line about the rule so that it doesn't get the chance to happen.

Cheers
Dave :mrgreen:
Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two!

Stayt`ie
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by Stayt`ie » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:59 am

i have seen the damage done both to property and person when a speedway solo bike, while being warmed up in the pits, came off off its stand, not pretty, :evil:
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

rgn

Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:47 pm

Stayt`ie wrote:i have seen the damage done both to property and person when a speedway solo bike, while being warmed up in the pits, came off off its stand, not pretty, :evil:
I think you will find that speedway bikes have 1 gear and no neutral, so if it was on a stand and running it is likely it would have been in gear unless the rider had a cable tie around the clutch lever and bar (there's an idea). Not really relevant to road or LSR?

At start line I don't think that the rule causes a huge problem, provided there is adequate shade for drivers and riders, a vehicle should be ready to go at that point in time.

The problem with the rule is for entrants who wish to do maintenance or safety checks in the pits. I wouldn't like to see a person sitting on a fuel bike, or inside the cage of a car when adjustments were being made to fueling etc.

Also, it says a RIDER/DRIVER in 1.L, does this mean the person entered with the vehicle, someone who is licensed to ride or drive, (race or domestic license) or just anyone? Is there an age limit?

momec3
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by momec3 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:27 pm

I'm kinda hoping some common sense gets applied when WE make OUR rules and don't simply follow SCTA.
Bikes are different to cars. To shut off a bike quickly its within reach, car not so.
Same common sense applies to many pit activities especially refuelling with which anything goes at present. Way more dangerous than running race vehicles up.
My thoughts.
Chris

rgn

Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:45 pm

rgn wrote:Also, it says a RIDER/DRIVER in 1.L, does this mean the person entered with the vehicle, someone who is licensed to ride or drive, (race or domestic license) or just anyone? Is there an age limit?
I may appear to be 'over concerned' but I have witnessed-experienced rule bias in the past.

I have looked for a definition-glossary page but couldn't find one.

Clarrification of these questions would be greatly appreciated.

grumm441
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Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by grumm441 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:12 am

rgn wrote:Also, it says a RIDER/DRIVER in 1.L, does this mean the person entered with the vehicle, someone who is licensed to ride or drive, (race or domestic license) or just anyone? Is there an age limit?

I may appear to be 'over concerned' but I have witnessed-experienced rule bias in the past.

I have looked for a definition-glossary page but couldn't find one.

Clarrification of these questions would be greatly appreciated.
So are you suggesting this rule is biased towards someone or something?
And if it is biased, do you have any research to support this
Have you done any research to find out what other Land Speed orginizations say in their rules regarding running bikes in the pits and at the start line
or perhaps what ANDRA say in their rules about it
Yes it does say Driver/Rider in the rule book. Do you now need a legal definition of Rider
G
They make it
I make it work

rgn

Re: Rule Clarification-Requirement clarification request?

Post by rgn » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:40 am

grumm441 wrote:Have you done any research to find out what other Land Speed organizations say in their rules regarding running bikes in the pits and at the start line
or perhaps what ANDRA say in their rules about it
I'm only interested in rules that apply to us, within our organisation, the dlra here in Australia. Nothing else matters.
grumm441 wrote:Yes it does say Driver/Rider in the rule book. Do you now need a legal definition of Rider
G
If you don't mind.

G, it is you who stated in a previous post that a day ban would apply if a bike was run without a RIDER seated on the Motorcycle.

G, I''m one of your supporters, not your enemy.

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