Two way runs for 2019

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Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:10 am

I'll put this here for people to comment on as the rules are not finalised yet.

But here is what we are thinking.

At this stage, you can expect it to be very similar to what happens at Bonneville.

The big discussion has been what to do with existing records. We could lock them all up and start again. But the popular choice at the moment seems to be to retain them, or roll them over. Yes we understand that this makes it harder for some, but it won't take long for people to adapt and develop strategies.

So if you exceed or set a record, your vehicle goes to impound and you get to work on it for 4 hours, then your out.
Next morning, all vehicles that have qualified for a record attempt will run. If the average of the 2 runs are greater than the existing record, your good.

It must be 2 consecutive runs.

All record attempts will be on Track 1 (this will be a challenge for the small capacity bikes)

Still to be worked through is if a vehicle qualifies for a record on Track 2, do they get to use the quarter mile trap to set the record or have to use the mile trap. I think I know what the answer is going to be, but let's see what happens.

If we wanted to be really serious and putting ourselves on a level playing field, all records would be over the measured mile.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by Cookey » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Looking good Greg, I concur with the popular choice on existing records.
One question:
Is there a limitation on what mile speed trap would be the limit to the proposed rule? 3, 4, 5 & 6 mile sectors.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:10 pm

I know where you're coming from. If we did go with new records, this would be the ideal time to include the sixth miles speed if it was available.
I'd suggest you put your thoughts in writing to the club.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by bobthebike » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:03 pm

That would be a 2 run one way average not a two way run average.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by 34SaltNorm » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:56 am

Greg I am with you 100% on this .....it would free up the track for more competitors with more runs ..also create more team strategy making it harder to achieve records ..... this is a good thing ......I think it would need to be done with a controlled fuel also this of course creates another problem

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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by AuotonomousRX » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:00 am

Thanks Greg

I agree with the intent of this proposal and have a few comments/questions

What is being proposed is the introduction of "Two Way Records".

What will they be called? I have heard some mention of them being Autralian Land Speed Records or is this about DLRA Two Way Records?

Is this an addition to our Record structure or a replacement for "One Way Records"?

As far as Exiting Records, they are all "1.G.1 One Way Record Runs" so maintaining them is problematic as they are a very different type of Record to a Two Way Record.

Looking back over previous Rule Books the "Two Way Records" were in place until 2013 and then marked SCTA only and then removed completely in 2016

The original "Two Way Records" Rule said,

1.G2: "Two way average records are established by a two-run average over the same relative or physical mile,
depending upon course conditions. Only the fastest average speed will be used for record calculation."


I would support this, so all new Records should be measured over a Timed One Mile Section, other wise it effectively means we would have two sorts of Records a 1/4 Mile Record and a One Mile Record ....

Will the first visit to Impound be the time that all aspects of Class Compliance are checked?

What is the role of Track 2 if all Records are set on Track 1?

If we use only Track 1 for Record setting I won't run on Track 2 anymore.

A suggestion, I understand that we do not have room to lengthen Track 2, so is it possible to

1: Put Timers at the One Mile and Two Mile on Track 2 for Record setting for Vehicles that run below 125/150 mph?

2: Then move the 1-3/4 mile Timer to say 20 metres/60 feet before the Two Mile as an Licensing/Exit Speed Timer?

This way we provide Members with four different "Tracks".

1: One Mile Run up (Track 2), Lower speed Vehicles below 125/150mph
2: Two Mile Run up (Track 1 Short Course) Middle Speed Vehicles 150mph > 175 mph
3: Three or more Mile Run Up (Track 1 Long Course). Higher Speed 175 + mph
4: Licensing Track (Track 2)

Pete :)
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:46 pm

See my responses in italics

I agree with the intent of this proposal and have a few comments/questions

What is being proposed is the introduction of "Two Way Records".

What will they be called? I have heard some mention of them being Autralian Land Speed Records or is this about DLRA Two Way Records?

I have previously gone through the heirachy of Land Speed Records what we have been running to date are called local records. What I am proposing are what are called National or Australian Records.
I have spoken with Motorcycling Australia and they have no interest in maintaining land speed records of any sort, so certainly for Motorcycles they would be legitimate Australian Land Speed Records.
I'm still waiting for CAMS to get back to me but regardless, in my opinion, we can still run National Records


Is this an addition to our Record structure or a replacement for "One Way Records"?
This would replace the one way records

As far as Exiting Records, they are all "1.G.1 One Way Record Runs" so maintaining them is problematic as they are a very different type of Record to a Two Way Record.
What we are proposing is a change to the rulebook, so there would be no more one-way records

Looking back over previous Rule Books the "Two Way Records" were in place until 2013 and then marked SCTA only and then removed completely in 2016

The original "Two Way Records" Rule said,

1.G2: "Two way average records are established by a two-run average over the same relative or physical mile,
depending upon course conditions. Only the fastest average speed will be used for record calculation."


I would support this, so all new Records should be measured over a Timed One Mile Section, other wise it effectively means we would have two sorts of Records a 1/4 Mile Record and a One Mile Record ....
This seems to be the popular opinion

Will the first visit to Impound be the time that all aspects of Class Compliance are checked?
Hasn't been determined yet, but I would say it would be after their successful back up run, Two reasons, it saves the competitor having to possibly tear down their vehicle between runs and will reduce the number of inspections to only be where entrants are successful

What is the role of Track 2 if all Records are set on Track 1?
This is why I put forward the option of allowing a first pass record to be set over a quarter mile, but having to be backed up on Track 1.
Track 2 can still be used for licensing runs and if we can extend it to a measured mile can still be used for records. For example we had 60
odd rookies this year, there's 120 to 180 runs that would not have to be done on Track 1


If we use only Track 1 for Record setting I won't run on Track 2 anymore.
So your saying every run you do is for a record?

A suggestion, I understand that we do not have room to lengthen Track 2, so is it possible to

1: Put Timers at the One Mile and Two Mile on Track 2 for Record setting for Vehicles that run below 125/150 mph?

2: Then move the 1-3/4 mile Timer to say 20 metres/60 feet before the Two Mile as an Licensing/Exit Speed Timer?

This way we provide Members with four different "Tracks".

1: One Mile Run up (Track 2), Lower speed Vehicles below 125/150mph
2: Two Mile Run up (Track 1 Short Course) Middle Speed Vehicles 150mph > 175 mph
3: Three or more Mile Run Up (Track 1 Long Course). Higher Speed 175 + mph
4: Licensing Track (Track 2)

Good suggestion, but you've added another set of lights ($15,000) there. Even if we could get a mile and a half run up and then a measured mile on Track 2, that may suit many people.

Pete :)

Thanks Pete
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by momec3 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:15 pm

Why not maintain "one way records" as a local track record and create "Australian records" as 2 way runs.

A lot of us have invested a lot of our lives to achieve the records that we own. To have these suddenly discounted or shelved would be unjust and unfair.


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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by AuotonomousRX » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:51 am

momec3 wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:15 pm
Why not maintain "one way records" as a local track record and create "Australian records" as 2 way runs.

A lot of us have invested a lot of our lives to achieve the records that we own. To have these suddenly discounted or shelved would be unjust and unfair.


Chris
Yes Chris, that is another option that makes sense to me and is basically the way the Rule Book was written before 2016 ... It had One and Two Way Records but no actual Title describing the Record ....

So One Way Records could be official DLRA Class Records and Two Way are official Australian Land Speed Records ... But is this an Administrative problem?

Thanks Greg for clarifying what we are looking at ..... So we are talking about Australian land Speed Records, in that context I'd say.

"If we use only Track 1 for Record setting I won't run on Track 2 anymore.
So your saying every run you do is for a record?"

Pretty much Greg, this comes from my past experience when we had the GPS Track and I did runs that could of been a Record (and rightly did not count)

Then when I went onto the Timed Track my Bike had issues. :D

I was happy when Track 2 had Timers so that every run I did, if it was fast enough, was recorded as a Record based on the One Way Record requirements described in the DLRA Rule Book to this point and if I am now running Australian Land Speed Records, having every run count is more important.

Now we are looking at a few options.

One possibility is using Track 2 for Licensing/Testing.
If that was the case then why have Timers on it at all?
It could fulfill those functions as a GPS Track. (Yes that is one option but not something I would support as I see it as a backward step)

Remember we put Timers on Track 2 so we had Two Tracks that you could set One Way Records on and relieve the traffic on Track 1.

That set up is now working well, and is a good basis for moving forward, so for me, the first question facing the Committee is, what does the DLRA want to do as far as introducing Australian Land Speed Records. as this takes things to another step in the evolution of Land Speed racing in Australia.

Do we want to have a mixed 1/4 Mile/1 Mile Two Way Records, as Official Australian Land Records? Qualifying over either 1/4mile or 1 Mile then all back up runs over the 1 Mile on Track 1 using the Timers we have, ( my second preference as would allow me to run on Track 2 for qualifying and Track 1 for back up run)

or

"Good suggestion, but you've added another set of lights ($15,000) there."

Do we do it once and Invest some of the DLRA finances into expanding the capacity of our existing and successful Two Track Timing Set Up to enable us to run Australian Land Speed Records based on the average of two 1 Mile runs and be able to do that on either Track (based on the type of Vehicle you have). (It's not my decision but that's my first preference after all we are talking about Official Australian Land Speed records here)

"Even if we could get a mile and a half run up and then a measured mile on Track 2, that may suit many people."

Can we move the tracks South by 1/2 Mile to accommodate this?

Pete :)
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:10 pm

Been talking to Greg Telford who has been heavily involved with the track layouts for the last several years.
We have spoken a lot about having a plan A, Plan B, etc. Dependent upon surface conditions as they presented when it was time to set out the layout.
The key here is to try and make both tracks as similar as possible for "Short course" runs.
Our aim is to provide 2 tracks that can be used for setting records on.

If we have a surface like we did this year we could easily have a 4 mile Track 2. (Plan A)
Moving the whole track layout three quarters of a mile south will help with getting a 4 mile track 2 on average years. (This was to happen this year but didn't because of surveyors equipment failure) (Plan B)
Greg reckons even without the layout moved to the south, and on less than average years we would be able to get a mile and a half run up and still have a measured mile on Track 2. (Plan C)
So he's going to prepare some layouts on this basis and we'll see how that lays out on the salt at the working bee in November.

The speed limits for Track 2 would still apply, 150mph for cars and 175mph for bikes.

Just on the timing system, for those that weren't around at the time, the original cost was $55,000, since then with constant improvements each year we have already spent over another $50,000 on additional equipment. We are already looking at more improvements and probably spending another $20-30,000. The other thing to remember is that the more bits we keep adding to it the more complex it becomes, the longer it takes to set up and pull down. It was well after dark before all the gear was packed away this year and that was with a couple of crews helping.

I'm happy to put to the committee that we retain one-way records. (Just more work for me)

On this basis, moving forward all two-way records would be open in 2019.
Local (DLRA) records could continue be set over the quarter or measured mile.
Australian Records would be the average speed set over the measured mile.

Also just to confirm any DLRA Australian Records can never be compared with FIA or FIM records because they use a very different class structure.
The DLRA only run a small subset of the records managed by FIA and FIM which include distance and time records. eg. 50km or 24hr
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by gennyshovel » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:54 am

Sounds good to me Greg.
One (more) question though,,, 2 way records,,,,meaning runs made on consecutive days, in the same direction ? , or 2 runs, made on consecutive days, the 2nd run being made in the opposite direction to run #1 ? That seems like an awful lot of track set up work to me ?
I also understand that the huge amount of runs made this year may never be seen to happen again with 2 way record changes, as day 2 will be tied up with competitors from day 1's runs (repeated for day 3 & 4) backing up, or beating their previous day's runs & getting a 2 way average.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by Stayt`ie » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:45 am

Would like to see the one way records (one hit wonders) discontinued,, thay would detract from the "real" records,,

Back in the day I was a sitting member on the North Queensland Divisional Council of ANDRA,, Recall (if memory serves me correctly) a discussion that our drag racing records could only be claimed as Australian "National Records" because ANDRA was affliated with CAMS,, other than that thay were club or track records,, What "Legal right" dose the club (DLRA) have the to call them "Australian/National records" ??
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by Graham Scott » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:01 pm

Although a "one hit wonder", would it be possible to have the record for my car, as set in 2016, added to the record list before they are all scrubbed? Pointless, I know, but possible?
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:42 pm

gennyshovel wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:54 am
Sounds good to me Greg.
One (more) question though,,, 2 way records,,,,meaning runs made on consecutive days, in the same direction ? , or 2 runs, made on consecutive days, the 2nd run being made in the opposite direction to run #1 ? That seems like an awful lot of track set up work to me ?
I also understand that the huge amount of runs made this year may never be seen to happen again with 2 way record changes, as day 2 will be tied up with competitors from day 1's runs (repeated for day 3 & 4) backing up, or beating their previous day's runs & getting a 2 way average.
Tiny
Tiny as I said at the start, same as Bonneville.
Qualify for a record one day, back it up the next day.
Same direction. For Speed Week we could never do two directions and it has never been proposed.
There is no reason why the high volume of runs can't continue. The only difference is the backup runs are done first, then it business as usual. You have to think, there was 60 odd records set this year, so l that's only 12 each day.
The trick will be managing backup runs for records qualified on the Friday. You would start day day with backup runs, and then open it up to everyone. For every qualifying run you would the need to deduct 10 minutes from the closing time so they had an opportunity to do their back up run before the tracks we're closed for the year.
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Re: Two way runs for 2019

Post by DLRA » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:06 pm

Stayt`ie wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:45 am
Would like to see the one way records (one hit wonders) discontinued,, thay would detract from the "real" records,,

Back in the day I was a sitting member on the North Queensland Divisional Council of ANDRA,, Recall (if memory serves me correctly) a discussion that our drag racing records could only be claimed as Australian "National Records" because ANDRA was affliated with CAMS,, other than that thay were club or track records,, What "Legal right" dose the club (DLRA) have the to call them "Australian/National records" ??
Thanks Ronnie
As I explained before, Motorcycling Australia are the official FIM affiliated organisation for Australia. They have not kept land speed records of any sort since 1992. I have spoken to several people within the organisation about the DLRA maintaining these records on their behalf and they are not against it.
The FIM actually refer to National events and records, not Australian records. So as long as we call them Australian records and not National records I don't see a problem. When I get a chance I will dig out the definition of heirachy of records again.
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